Doubles- moving from attack to defense (with weaker player)

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by HN52354, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    I play doubles regularly with three other people. Our skill level in order is 1, 2 (me), 3 (my partner), 4. 1 and 4 partner together and 2 and 3 together to balance out the teams.

    When we're serving, we start out in attack position (serving person in front and partner at the back). The problem is when I'm serving and my partner is at the back. She's a weaker player and her returns tend to end up mid/ front court where it gets smashed.

    If they make her run side to side then I try to move back into a defense position (she can't smash from back/ is too slow to get into position). Let's say she's at the back left and I retreat to the right side to defend. If the other team hits to the front left, is it her job to move forward or should I have stayed at the front?

    From watching videos, it seems that it's her job to move forward (and then I can move towards the back). She's the type to get easily annoyed because I was right there before and could've gotten it if I stayed at the front (even though it would've exposed the right side).

    I'm also considering whether we can serve from a defense position or maybe even if I serve from behind while she guards the front?
     
  2. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    If you run into the situation where you try to move back from front-back to a left-right situation, but the opponent plays it short and no one is covering front, most likely is your partner’s previous shot was too weak to give you ample time to really settle into a left-right formation. Ideally, she should play a high clear.

    If you keep running into such a situation, that means your partner is not capable of playing in the back. That case, as you pointed yourself, you should consider let her stay at front even when you serve.
     
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  3. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Thanks I will try and suggest those. I suspect she might not be able to play a clear as she just gets there in time to hit it over the net without positioning her body well or looking/thinking about a strategic place to hit it to
     
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  4. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    See your opponent, do they an oportunist type who will do anything to win even if they hav to aim & bully the noobs all time. If not, it will be easier & you can play more fun stroke rather than kill stroke. But if yes, well... You need strategy for this. Keep in mind that you could also bully the noob on the other side to if your aim is winning. Me, normally i will play fun stroke rather than kilk stroke. I play @the same times train my non dominant skill (let say drop, net play, deceptive) & train my observation & strategy.

    1st observe your partner & opponent strength & weakness. Then you need to know if your parner is open for advice or self high ego type. If he is an ego type, just play & do your best to get some fun yourself. But if he is open minded, you can discuss strategy with him about how to play.

    1st case (from my own exp)
    my friend a beginner & love to ask advice from me. Bad footwork, no strength for clear, let alone smash. But 1 thing i know, he had a very good reflex. He can cut any fast flat bird coming to it. Tho sometimes he had to do some Jackiechan stunt few times at the front but he is quite responsive there:D. So i build him into a front player specialist. Tell him how to move side to side, how to control the bird about when to drop or when to lift. So with him i would kinda close my eye on the front court area & i take the back court (atk position all time). I know i would be strugling at the back if they makes me run left to right. But like you, my opponent also takes the noobs this wouldnt be to much hard. Then the rest is up to you how you put strategy on your shot. Dont lift to much as you wouldnt be in def formation at all. Drag the opponent up front then push back, or flat mixed shot (straight, cross, or middle).

    2nd case
    Im with someone that had bad reflex for front player, an ok footwork yet not quite fast, an ok hitting but no control or strategy just hit it with all he had & just hope it pass the net. With this, i play with defensive formation. He wouldnt know rotation & wont be fast enough for cross dash chase. So with defensive formation, it will not 50:50 half court splitup but i take more bigger area 60:40 (it depend on how slow your partner is). I play more slowly as i takes bigger area & need to becarefull for aggresive atk coz if you are out of position, you know your partner wont be able to catch up. & i will trust my partner for the other 40% of his area (well, you know trust between partner is needed & without trust how could you work together)

    it just 2 case, but in actual its all depend on many factor that you need to learn. More games will makes you better. Observe, make strategy, execute. If it didnt work, well you know if plan A didnt work, you had long list of alphabet to use for your next strategy.:p. Nobody perfect & experience is a better teacher than just reading it on a book & never give up is the key.

    1 thing you mustnt do is to blame your opponent, yell at them, & putting ugly face to them. Bad mood will ruin their already bad into worst play. Encourage them & keep playing.
     
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  5. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Thank you Budi for the very thoughtful advice and examples

    You're right, a lot of it is about the attitude. My partner gets easily frustrated when she loses and my friend who is the top player (1) likes winding her up by teasing her about how they won all the games that day (by aiming at her and using her weakness most of the time).

    I'll have a talk with him about playing in a way that will challenge but not bully her. Plus it affects how much fun and exercise everyone else is having if they win easily by attacking her. Sometimes I barely get any shots in
     
  6. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I personally think she should learn to play a clear and cross court clear. Otherwise you won't escape from this situation. Anything else are just temporary solutions, but if she really enjoy badminton you should be supportive and try to teach here how to clear and move.

    I suggest temporary these things which are not optimal, but can temporary help to loose points in this situation:

    1) Try to do flick serve more. As I understand you serve short, opponents pin her in the back and she can't make the shots to rotate. With a flick you won't be in attacking formation, but as long as she can't attack or play solutions to rotate with you there are nearly none advantages for you as a pair. Opponents just lift and wait for the crappy shot. The only advantage is that you are during service in attack to neutral, she get the lift and play a weak shot which turns you immediately into defence or loose the point. I suggest to try the flick and try to work out from the defense, because you have more chances to help her in the backcourt. This is not something which is conform with the play of level doubles tactics, but can be a solution for a few weeks for your problem. But better she should learn to play the shots from the backcourt. A clear would here the first step.

    2) If you serve she stand infront of you like in mixed. This brings you in the attack formation during serve, when you serve and the opponents can't pin her in the back. IMO also just a temporary solution for your problem. I also recommend to be supportive and try to help her to learn clear and footwork instead of putting her for ages to the net.Take note, that your short serve must be good quality otherwise it can be attacked more easy.

    3) If she is in the backcourt it should be more benificial if she play cross court shots. Just a temporary solution, which is not the best way, but maybe something which is easier for her. With cross court shots, she has a chance to rotate with you better. You need to stand in the front more mid and committed to the other side to rotate with her if the opponents try to pin her in the back. That way you are ready and able to help her better in one corner or can maybe defend the kill, which will be more likely come to you. In short you try to play side-side after the third shot, when you serve and give her space in the front to get to the net. In Mixed doubles it is often the case that the Lady can rotate with the male better if she plays cross court shots, when her attack can't penetrate the defence well enough from the back.
     
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  7. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This sounds like a very good plan of action. Let us know how it goes. Of course a good solution is skills improvement but realistically that takes time and not everyone can do that.
     
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  8. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    The best thing is to get a coaching & getting better. But ofcourse not all have the luxury for extra spending to get a coach or some people doesnt aim anything for tournament thing but just a hobby. If this is the case, having a supportive friend would be good. Teach her the basic, tell her what she do wrong, & keep encouraging her. Fix her wrong one by one, step by step, little by little. Well, now my friend is a full fledge front player & few month ago he ask me to try playing back court. Ok, we play in defensive formation more. Teach him the basic back to back clear hit, doing more clear hit when warming up with him. He still progressing slowly, little by little.

    But before that, i think both you & your parner need to answer this one.
    https://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-is-fun-for-you-in-badminton.183415/
    Yes... WHAT IS FUN FOR YOU IN BADMINTON

    if the answer is winning, then you or your partner will get more frustation & stress rather than fun.

    I had my answer already & even on loosing i still get my own version of fun. I remember when im still green & beaten up badly 2vs1 me & my friend agains a skillfull player 0:30. It didnt stress me out but encourage me to someday i will beat him.
     
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  9. Hbmao

    Hbmao Regular Member

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    It’s great to have a relaxed attitude and try to enjoy the game. However the reality is certain game strategies only work when BOTH players “do their jobs”, especially those from the more aggressive front-back formation. To oversimplify things, if your job is to cover spots A and B and your partner C and D, but he has problem covering C, now you are in a precarious situation: if you do nothing your opponent will keep hitting to C, but if you try to cover C, then you can’t do a good job at A and B at the same time unless you are a super player.

    Game strategy needs to fit player’s ability, that’s all I’m saying. Relying on people to do more than they are capable of won’t lead to positive results, no matter how good the original intention is.
     
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  10. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    yes, agree with that. Each player have their own role & job that they had to fulfill so both player can compensate each other weakness & play at fully focus & strength for their part of role. But sadly in club environtment where the skill gap is pretty much big, its unavoidable where eventually you would be paired with lower level to balance both team. Coz it wouldnt be fun if you do slaughtering 1 side totally winning (at least for me its not, others might feel different). In those situation, basically its still tactical/strategical play with added parameter that is more weakness on your team side which is your lower level partner. But keep in mind to that the other side also having pretty much similar problem as there is also a lower level player in there that you could take advantage.

    In a serious competition like my company sport competition celebrating our nation independence day, me as one of the representative agains other company in our big group company. At early match, i can say its not even a challange as some of company dont have player for badminton but they still send their men just to celebrate. I respect that but sorry dude, i wont show mercy as its a real competition & if i slacking off or jerking off, i know alot of shoes will be in my butt (my friend that cheering me & the team:D). But on competitive games on my club its different story, i didnt aim for winning but get more fun while also try to makes everyone feel the fun to.
     
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  11. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Thanks everyone. I'll try out the suggestions and see how it goes on Saturday. We'll have 2 extra members so it will be fun and we'll get to switch around with different partners

    My partner started going to a korean club that also has some coaching nights so I hope she'll learn from that.
    We can try out different tactics when we play doubles games on Saturdays but it's a bit difficult trying to individually teach her how to improve her shots when we're playing together. As in we play doubles games the whole time so don't have time to coach.

    Coaching my partner and 'number 4' on how to improve their shots might be ideal in the long term because if they can play better, we'll have more fun and competitive games. But for me and 'number 1' it means losing game time and cost since we pay the same amount and aren't getting as much out of it (essentially doing the same thing coaches get paid for).

    It seems like 1-2 extra members will start playing more regularly again with us so being able to mix up the teams will be a good chance to refresh and get exposed to new play styles :)
     
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  12. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    You dont need to be actually waste time to coach them. 2 person whos right now under me (well not like im the boss & they are my minions, but they just likely to ask advice or thing about badminton to me), they didnt pay me & i didnt spend like 2 hour training session.

    When warming him up (normaly i already got heated up after some good match between the good player before), i will give him easy stroke & see how he return & tell few thing to fix those. After awhile i will give more difficult shot like left to right repeatly. At 1st its really funny to see him taking all my shot with just his good reflex but no skill, but after awhile well... He could keep up with better stance & pose.

    Then we normally play as per usual, 1 nob each team & 1 skilled each team to balance out the games. Often i will tell my partner (in good attitude & not to look like insulting them) what he do wrong & it would be better if you do this than that in every point break. It wont be instant 3 hour session training & he become good, its slow but steady progress. As long as he want to learn, become better, then let the time & experience be their teacher. Me? It just small part of what i do, guide them to the right path, the rest is up to him.

    But its look like im wasting my time playing with them. Maybe yes & maybe no. Playing with lower level mean there is bigger window for an error & that will be ok. That mean i can practice my non dominant skill. If i just want a winning, i just need to unleash my Flying Dragon Thunderous Roar Earth Crushing Explosive Big Bang Smash:p to the lower level on the other side & it will be like flicker in their eye but it wont be fun when you win just like that. The good thing when im in real fight, i had better dropshot & better netplay as i had train it already:D.
    Other is experience that i get from my strategy i make. I makes plan, talk to my friend, & execute. Dang... It fail, ok next plan B, C, D, until E & it works. So in situation like this it works. & as badminton games is fast & change alot, you will get alot more variation. When you had bulk up alot of experience, on real games you would feel like your mind open wide & able to keep up with the fast pace & many different situation instead of like CPU that is out of memory lagging in the court.:confused:

    Few thing.
    Open minded for input from others.
    Have desire to become better.
    Never give up.
    Play with anyone even if it mean a mortal to fight a demigod. Exp is always a better teacher. Seriously... Stop marking people. I know a friend in my club that mark us as a god among others & mortal doesnt mean to play with us. He avoid to play with us but with the beginner & bully them. In the end his progress is none while the other keep growing & bullying him back instead.
    Last but not least, enjoy the games.
    :D
     
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  13. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    how about you cover 3 corners? is your skill level up to it?

    Expecting her to go all the way to the front from the back is hard. She'd have to move really fast if they did a net shot, it'd take a high skill level from her to do that. And that kind of thing would require her to get coaching with a partner.. And i'm not even sure if that move has a name.. Like specific complexities of rotations when one partner is not good and the other good.. or when one partner accepts more of a front position, perhaps common in mixed.. it's advanced stuff.

    But if your skill level is such that you can judge that she won't be in the way e.g. many bad players remain where they are after they hit the shuttle, and if your skill level is up to it then surely you could play 3 corners?

    At beginner level I was always told "don't look back".. when at the front and they lift it over me('cos you don't want to lose an eye). But a guy that plays at a high level but is familiar with the kind of ridiculously low level of badminton you get at clubs, said that when they lift it back over you at the front, and particularly if your partner is terrible, then look at the back, while the shuttle is in the air long before your partner can hit it, and if they are struggling you know they won't be on the other side if the opponent cross courts it. Or if you know the person won't be there 'cos they're just not in the physical condition to be there. So he suggested to go for it..

    Really somebody that clears to midcourt isn't going to be doing a drop and running forward all the way to take a net shot..

    Also what is and isn't conventionally a partner's job is all down the toilet when they are that bad.

    Sometimes i'd ask them(even though they know nothing about proper positioning)!! I know one guy that doesn't have a clue re positioning, no idea whatsoever.. He clears it they do a drop on his side and he asks me why I didn't get it. The guy can't move after he does a clear. I said well when you clear you're meant to go sides(hence explaining why I didn't go for it). and then I asked him what he suggests. I still have absolutely no idea where to position myself when I play with that guy but I wouldn't take it too seriously and i'd ask him and over the weeks/years I try to figure it out!!

    Recently I think if i'm in a club that has some bad players like, old and not in good condition where I know they will be stuck in position after they hit it.. then if you are on one side, and I see that, then I may even attempt to play 3 corners and try to get better at doing that. Especially since the classic thing people try to do to them is move them side to side.

    It'd be better if your partner learnt to do drops. Instead of clears. that only reach mid court.
     
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  14. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Hmm I could try and cover more. Covering back + one front corner is challenging but might be manageable because I have full view of the court and know where she is.
    Covering front + one back corner is hard because I need to look back and might be too slow to reach it

    When she does drops then they tend to do net shots (keeping me at the front) or continue hitting to the back and wait until she returns high enough to smash/ net kill

    But yes I'll definitely work on my speed + stamina + footwork to cover more area. It would also help improve my skills for singles
     
  15. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Covering 3 corners, done when you're at the front and your partner is in a back corner, means you are covering 2 front corners(the whole front), and one back corner(the back corner where your partner is not)..

    Bear in mind that covering 3 corners is an advanced thing, like county level. I've played with a partner that is not really at a level to be doing it, and he gets back, but he is terrible at the front. It can work ok with him if he plays with a partner that is bad at the back, 'cos he's so bad at the front regardless, that he can't get any worse at the front, and he makes it to the back. Unfortunately he does that whoever he plays with!

    Maybe you are not very good at the front, 'cos you're not winning the point off their net shot, and if she got a net shot out of them then she's setting you up. What are you doing with these net shots?

    The general advice tends to be to work on singles to improve doubles footwork, not the other way around. 'cos singles footwork i've heard includes it all.

    And I am certain that doubles won't increase your endurance for singles! Doubles endurance is a picnic compared to singles. A suggestion i've heard to improve singles endurance is running. Some people are lucky they already have good endurance naturally.
     
    #15 ralphz, Jan 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  16. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Either return with a net shot or lift. Been trying to do more cross court shots. What do you suggest the next play should be? Did you mean I should try and kill it when they do the net shot?
     
  17. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I heard this from a player that isn't great, but i've found it works.. What may be an easy and effective option, is if they come to the net to do a net shot then I often push it past them and win the point. Past them but not as far as their partner. If they are back a bit then I might do a tight net shot they can't do much with. And of course killing it is idea if you can. . Cross-court can be good though in this case any lift from them seems to be wasted 'cos, as you say, your partner can't capitalise on it. The push to between the front player and their partner is something you could try, 'cos you can win the point off it, and it's good 'cos you can do it when you aren't able to kill it.
     
  18. Budi

    Budi Regular Member

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    Please dont forget its 1,4 vs 2,3.

    The best player cover the worst player. Idk how you clasify the rank but still considering the rank you mention, its still possible & not imposible. Doesnt mean you need to target & bully the 4th player but his return wont be as difficult as you can imagine, unless ofcourse you give the shuttle to the 1st most of the time.
    Take advantage of those 4th player weakness & 1st would need to cover much harder that yours for sure.
     
  19. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Check the first line or two of his first post and he said that . Also bear in mind that if practising with these games, and you just target the worst player all the time, you don't learn much, and the best player may look for another club.
     
  20. HN52354

    HN52354 Regular Member

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    Ohh I get what you mean. Yeah I'll try and push it to that in-between distance

    Our best player does a good job pairing with the worst. In my opinion it's because the worst is actually very open to learning new things and following instructions. On the other hand my partner can be known to have a bit of an ego/ temper problem.
    Thankfully we're all friends and we wouldn't leave unless something big happened. The best player paid court membership so he can go to club nights for free but he doesn't go because he just likes playing with us

    I consider myself an intermediate player. In terms of our relative abilities, if we were playing singles then
    Best vs me would be 21-16
    Me vs my partner would be 21-12
    Me vs worst would be 21-5
    I've also played 2 vs 1 games where it was me vs 3 & 4 and usually win around 21-17
    But in saying that, singles isn't necessarily reflective of doubles because there's more running that would be covered by your partner, and need to know who's doing what and where, etc.
     

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