Disappointing Order of Play

Discussion in 'Sudirman Cup 2007' started by cooler, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    3,517
    Likes Received:
    132
    Location:
    singapore
    Ideas are good but execution likely to be messy and time consuming.
    How about TC and UC? Don't they have a fixed order of play that can only be modified according to some fixed rules? Why can't SC learn from there?
    By the way, since the MS and WD didn't play, do they get the ranking points?
     
  2. TERENCE

    TERENCE Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    HKG
    Feel pity for the Chinese player epecially Lin Dan

    I think LYB is quite demanding for the Chinese player. Even thought Lin Dan lost to LCW, so what, China team won anyway. Why LYB wants China team to be perfect (5-0). Because of his loss to LCW, he is thinking of giving up Lin Dan to play in the final. What is going on his mind. I know he wants China team to be sure win in Surdiman Cup. Because he need face when return back to China after wining. He is kinds of selfish. He needs to change his altitude for being so bossy and dictator. For example, last year in December when I went to Guangzhou to see the badminton matches. Whenever the players won, they had to walk to his chair and bowed to him and for those who lost would be punished. It seems like he is a god. Tell me, Mr. LYB, how many time you had won during your badminton career. According to the records, you had not won so many. You should not put so much pressure on China team. Chen Hong is right. When he retired from China teams. He said he finds the real joy of playing badminton not just winning and winning. Now he can be more relaxed for playing badminton. I feel happy for him. As for Lin Dan, if he is not happy, he can apply to immigrate to Hong Kong and play for Hong Kong. Wang chen does not like LYB either when she played in China. I felt happy for her to win Indonesia, Asia Championship. The winnings must slap the face of LYB. The other thing I don't understand when playing Surdiman Cup. Why LYB was coaching the players instead of the coaches who does the job for every and each tournaments. Does it mean that he does not trust the rest of the coaches? I dont like his acts for being for bossy.
     
  3. madturtle

    madturtle Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Singapore
    It's interesting to see how one sudirman cup line-up can actually generate so many suggestions about future line-ups. Anyway, this time round, i think we cannot blame LYB because in my opinion, even if lin dan is on form, the last match he would want to see being played is MS. Taufik is simply better than lin dan in terms of skill, so the chances of LD beating taufik is the lowest compared to the other matches.

    Besides, commercialisation has been one of the most dangerous destroyers of sport all around the world. To please TV audiences and attract sponsors for badminton degrades the whole spirit of this game we love. I think we should not blame the organisers or the Chinese team, because be it a random order or an order selected by the team manages, it is all still badminton and a beautiful game. The TV viewers did not have the blessing of watching the showdown between taufik and lin dan, but there will be more such opportunities to come, i'm sure.
     
  4. jimbo

    jimbo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    4,275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia BOLEH...!!!
    Personally, I think LYB is very "kiasu" (Scare to lose). Therefore, Singapore govt should give him SG citizenship :eek: or invite him to be SG ambassador :D
     
  5. TERENCE

    TERENCE Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    HKG
    BWF should be more consistent and need to improve

    I think BWF should learn from Tennis Association how to become big in the world. There are many areas that the BWF should be improved. First, the BWF should give up the entries according to National Identity for each players and let them enter to play by individual.
    With regards for the surdiman cup, they should set up a rule and not change all the time whenever they want, just be more professional.
    The most important that there always people who cannot judge the call right. BWF should follow tennis where they should set up a cam and replay the point with slow motion to show the exact position fo shuttle landing and let the players has 3 chances to challenge the calls in three sets when they think the shuttle is in while the line judges call out. It avoids the things happened in Hong Kong Open 2006 where Taufik walked out of the court and accused of line judge misjudge the call. It also avoided the All China games in 2006 where the Wang chen from Hong Kong gave up playing because the chinese line judges call out when the shuttle is actually in or vice versa in order to make China team won. BWF please catch up with Tennis to make it big in the world and get more people attention. The most important, present more money prizes to the winner. This is so little when compared with Tennis.
     
    #45 TERENCE, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  6. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,811
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Surfing, reading fan mails:D, Dilithium Crystal hu
    Location:
    Basement Boiler Room
    Hmm, i recall that LD had beaten TH in 2005 sudirman cup, in 2006 JP open, 06 HK open, and 06 asian team event. TH beat LD in 2005 WC and 2006 asian games individual event. Would this ratio be better than 50/50 and not low chances of LD beating TH?
     
    #46 cooler, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  7. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    21,811
    Likes Received:
    21
    Occupation:
    Surfing, reading fan mails:D, Dilithium Crystal hu
    Location:
    Basement Boiler Room
    yes, LYB is strict and bossy but then china is a communism country, and LYB has result to back up his coaching style. Maybe it is this coaching style needed in INA and MAL. I recalled malaysia players are unfocused and too lax. At one time they have to bring in military/police people to teach them discipline. Then Look at PBSI with all those little suharto's running around. Don't u think INA would perform better if they had 1 guy like LYB in control? Until u have countries that can beat LYB's soldiers, LYB's style isn't that bad.
     
    #47 cooler, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  8. ksooi

    ksooi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Entreprenuer
    Location:
    Hong Kong,Malaysia
    14. ORDER OF PLAY
    14.1 When nominating his/her team, the Team Manager shall recommend to the Referee a suggested order of play and, at that
    time, the Referee shall decide and announce the order of play.
    14.2 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.


    above is the regulation for order of play.....maybe both managers wanted the MS to be the last game....if INA had won the XD, the score could have easily been 2-2....i would hav put my money on INA's LD to win....personally i would hav put taufik to play last coz he raves for the pressure games....i think it is great in the team event if you can tinker with order of play.....somtimes it wil benefit a weaker team....


    in open tournaments, i knw the tournament referee will at the end of the day annouce the order of play for the next day...somtimes they wil change it due to the live broadcast....usually it will happen from the last quarters onwards....or if players dont hav enough rest in between matches.....
     
  9. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2004
    Messages:
    1,611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto
    This is the best opinion given in this thread and how come no one have agreed??

    I too think random draw would solve any unfairness on either side and would bring more surprises to the tournament.

    Regardless of the playing order, I think we must not forgotten that SC is a team event, the TEAM that has the strongest strength deserve to win (which China does) and not the draw.
     
  10. ksooi

    ksooi Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Messages:
    611
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Entreprenuer
    Location:
    Hong Kong,Malaysia
    Order of play for Thomas Cup and Uber Cup

    14. ORDER OF PLAY
    14.1 There are eight permissible orders of play:
    14.1.1 First singles - first doubles - second singles - second doubles - third singles
    14.1.2 First singles - second doubles - second singles - first doubles - third singles
    14.1.3 First singles - second singles - first doubles - third singles - second doubles
    14.1.4 First singles - second singles - second doubles - third singles - first doubles
    14.1.5 First singles - second singles - third singles - first doubles - second doubles
    14.1.6 First singles - second singles - third singles - second doubles - first doubles
    14.1.7 First singles - first doubles - second singles - third singles – second doubles
    14.1.8 First singles - second doubles - second singles - third singles – first doubles.
    14.2Determining order of play
    14.2.1 Orders of play 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 will be considered in turn and the first order of play will be used which has
    no player playing in two consecutive matches or playing doubles before singles.
    14.2.2 If all eight orders of play, 14.1.1 to 14.1.8 result in a player playing in two consecutive matches or playing
    doubles before singles, order of play 14.1.5 will be used.
    14.3 Any player participating in two matches is entitled to a minimum interval of 30 minutes between them.
     
  11. HiddenPower

    HiddenPower Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    NY, USA
    Well, say whatever you want to say, however, LYB has the current status of the best coach in Chinese Badminton's history. Maybe this is the way a coach means to be...

    As long as he keeps up his job, he is bullet proof (from all the bad mouths)...
     
  12. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Sometimes the rules is on your side, sometimes it's not. In SC2003, CHN lost to KOR 1:3 (WD did not play). I wonder if the order is WS, WD, MS, MXD, MD, then CHN might win, since KOR will be in a rather possible 0:2 (yeah, they did have Ra, but...) to even begin the match between CH vs. LHI.

    Well, at least, the above final was a close match. Even if say the MS is played, and I would rather say the final score is at most 1:3, if TH does win out. It's definitely gives a bonus to the ticket holders, but does it really change the fact who's holding the cup? Mostly, no... :rolleyes:
     
  13. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,096
    Likes Received:
    14
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    Whether you like LYB or not, he did get his job done most of the time. It's his style of coaching, and his bosses accept it, and did get good tournament results as a feedback.

    If CH really have the guts to voice his unhappiness, he should quit the team even before he's getting famous. Why he chooses to stay? Because he evaluate the overall still benefits him, and he's smart enough to stay. :cool:
     
  14. Joyous

    Joyous Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2006
    Messages:
    245
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    UK
    Originally Posted by kwun [​IMG]

    i don't blame LYB for not allowing the change, players have been mentally prepared for their play order and trying to change things a couple of hours can potentially affect their preparation.


    Goodness, why is LYB getting the brunt when in the 1st place it was the unfortunate error of those in BWF. Kwun's comments make sense. In a team event, any sensible coach will look at the overall picture and play their cards well. If one of us is in LYB's shoes, would we have done any better.

    There can only be one leader, be it a nation, an organisation or a family. But that is not too say, others down the line cannot voice their opinions & be respected. I may not agree with some leaders but I certainly have to recognise and respect them for their contributions - Lee Kuan Yew, Mahathir or even Mao. I see some similarities of these leaders in LYB. For the record, team Chn has won 2 TC, 2 UB & 2 SC consecutively under his leadership. A wishy-washy, spineless and short-sighted coach will not be able to do this job. I stand corrected for my opinion.
     
  15. azabaz_ipoh

    azabaz_ipoh Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2006
    Messages:
    1,947
    Likes Received:
    5
    Occupation:
    is second to badminton
    Location:
    Ipoh, Malaysia
    errmmmm... my thinking is, true badminton lovers, loves all manners of badminton. football lovers loves their clubs, but when world cup comes around, they all donned their country's colours. so i dont agree with you about not loving badminton in the purest form if i love sudirman and thomas cup. playing for your country as a team is an honor. bigger than yourself. you have to set aside your personal glory. i have always have sentimental attachment to thomas cup even when malaysia have not been a constant winner.
     
  16. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    It's different in TC and UC. We are clear about the order. We know MS1 is superior to MS2. So, there aren't much complaints if the order is (MS1, MS2, MS3, MD1, MD2) or (MS1, MD1, MS2, MD2, MS3) with some flexibility in case players are involved in two matches.

    It is difficult to say in Sudirman Cup. Sometimes the XD is preferrable to MS (ENG v CHN). Sometimes, WS is more interesting (say FRA v others). Therein lies the difficulty to come up with a guideline that can satisfy everyone in every situation. Who is to say the MS is the most superior match?

    If a match is not held, the players will not get ranking points. However, it is enough for a player to be involved once in a tournament (win or lose) to get reasonably high ranking points.
     
  17. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    It's a well-thought proposal, but it has some flaws.

    1. I think the full match order must be decided beforehand. The last thing we want to do is to disturb the players' warm-up preparations. Then, fans will have a better chance to see a good match, and players will not have excuses because everyone knows the match order beforehand.

    2. Consecutive matches with the same players should be avoided, so that fans don't have to sit through 30 mins of inactivity. For instance, if CHN lost to INA in the XD, CHN could request for WD in the next match. Fans would have to wait at least 30 mins for the tie to resume, and even after that, I doubt Vita Marissa would be 100% effective.

    It's an interesting exercise. I wonder if we can start a discussion thread on this to just iron out the technical details without all the emotional baggage.

    ps. Why can't teams have players playing in two matches? Some teams just aren't big enough. Your rule will allow the bigger teams to bully the smaller ones. It is also important to try to have a more level playing field.
     
    #57 hcyong, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  18. hsengsping

    hsengsping Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    I think random draw in this instance resulted in an order of play that created a lot of dissatisfaction for TV companies, fans, etc. Badminton to grow and prosper need money - big bucks - look at e.g. golf, tennis, football. The requirements are too big even for governments to fund if one wants to see badminton on par with aforementioned sports. Money will need to come from TV and TV is interested in audience. You can't grow the sport if you don't fight for audience share. At the end, everything is a compromise. Tournament seeding is not a free draw - it recognised amongst other things good players at the end of a tournament build and sustain interest.

    The referee recognised he made a mistake and I believe has apologised - he has the discretion to decide (based a previous post quoting rule book), decided on a draw, belated saw that the draw is likely to diminished audience satisfaction, tried to change things, couldn't change anything (quite right too cos rules has to be followed), somehow this got out into public domain and quite a few people blame LYB for being selfish.

    LYB is Chinese coach whose primary duty is China winning (within the rules). Badminton's administrators' should look after the game (and rule book) - they have failed if the intend is to produce the best spectacle for the audience IMO and the referee has proferred an apology - quite rightly too. Live and learn.

    I don't believe a draw is the best solution - the easiest mechanism and superficially fair but fails in maximising audience interest. I speak as a member of the audience.
     
  19. camclive

    camclive Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    cambridge uk
    I think this quote is key - badminton really does differ from tennis in this main aspect - "National Identity". In tennis players are primarily seen as indivduals and treated as such by the fans. Fans do support their national players but the link is much weaker than it is in badminton. Tennis players choose their coaches, unlike in badminton where it mainly seems to be highly influenced by the national setup. This is shown clearly in that Davis cup and Olympics in tennis is not the most important thing (two nationalistic events).

    Some people may argue that the nationalistic flavour of badminton is what they like, which is fine. Going the tennis route would probably also push the team aspects like doubles further to the sidelines, as it is in tennis, where doubles is not seen as very important.

    It is fundamental changes like this rather than messing with the rules and formats of the game of badminton which will make a difference. If badminton wants to regain ground in the "West" then maybe following tennis is the way to go.

    Personally, I'm worried with any attempts that try to change a game to make it more successful in media terms than another, so I'm undecided.
     
  20. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2004
    Messages:
    5,558
    Likes Received:
    104
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    KL & Sg
    "National identity" cannot be undone by BWF. It is us fans that strongly identify a player by his nationality. Additionally, the fund going around badminton is not high and therefore it has to be state-supported.

    These are factors beyong the control of BWF. I believe that BWF has already taken the first step by removing the "country separation rule" in the drawing process.
     

Share This Page