Disappointing Order of Play

Discussion in 'Sudirman Cup 2007' started by cooler, Jun 17, 2007.

  1. camclive

    camclive Regular Member

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    Random play order

    Random play order seems the fairest to me. If the order was fixed then this would favor certain nations whose best players appear early in the fixed draw and could then put pressure on the opposing team.
     
  2. Smichz

    Smichz Regular Member

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    I do believe that the order of play dissapoints most of the spectators,since we gotta pass the MS great match.But as i know,it happends when CH team refuse the INA team order of sending MS to play as the 1st game.Maybe it's because LYB is not really confident of sending LD to play the game.So,LYB decided to bring this argument to the tournament referee board n let them decide by randomizing.

    Actually,LYB n chinese national team r really afraid to send LD for a play,since LD's performance is unstable these days.CH teams worries too much,since CH team lost the only point from the championship,only from when LD lost to LCW,MAS team.The rest of the XD,MD,WS,WD never lost in the championship.So,CH team n china blames LD to losing this one point,otherwise they can go for a perfect score.

    So,actually..there r alot of arguments about who's going to play for MS for CH team.Some ppl said dont let LD play,some said let LD play.
    I personally think that this is kind of stupid,by letting LD to bear such a big burden,without letting a chance for him to lose.Without losing,a player can never be mature,rite?Besides,from the losing,a player could learn n correct his mistakes.

    From my point of view,it's normal that LD lost.LD is not a god,who never loses.Besides,CH team only get the most competition from the MS game.The rest like WS,MD,XD,WD..china doesnt really have a real competitor in that,esp when their FHF/CY is at their peak,like how they played yesterday!

    XD,i feel that indo team still brings a huge competition with them.
    WS..ZN/XXF,they're simply the best WS player in the world.Till now,i've not seen anyone that brings a big competition yet.So does WD.
     
    #22 Smichz, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  3. hsengsping

    hsengsping Regular Member

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    The order of play should be the referee's prerogative if the teams managers cannot agree and the referee guide in applying that prerogative must be the good of the viewing public. In a team match, most neutral observers would agree keeping the match live as long as possible is in the interest of badminton. If there is concern about one person (referee) deciding then an independent committee can be charged with the job.

    Once a decision is made though, the game can be brought into disrespute trying to change things afterwards. Its a bit of a cockup this whole affair. Does BWF have clear (written) rules in place? Similar issues will likely arise again in Thomas, Uber and any other team competition played sequentially.

    A random draw though superficially fair is not always a good mechanism - afterall seeding is taken into account in tournament draws to maximise interest in the latter stages of a competition.
     
  4. hsengsping

    hsengsping Regular Member

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    What about as a mechanism, in the event of non agreement, team manager that win coin toss name 1st tie, 2nd tie decided by counterpart and so on alternatively to the last tie?
     
  5. Dreamzz

    Dreamzz Regular Member

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    that's a good system i think, each manager picking 1 tie after the toss. that'll improve the strategic selection of ties element as well.

    all in all it was a dissapointment, it would have been very hard for INA to win 2 ties to force the final game between LD and TH. they would have had to win the XD and MD, winning 1 is difficult enough. but i get the feeling that if the tie was poised at 2-2 with MS to go, INA would have taken it. all pure speculation though!
    :p
     
  6. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    I like this. Of course, must be in line with certain guidelines like, "no consecutive matches with same player", etc. The full guideline needs to be thought out. But this mechanism is interesting. Worth exploring.

    Edit: To make it more equal, can be like winner decides to calls first. First caller decides 1st match, 2nd caller decides 2nd and 3rd matches; and the first caller decides the 4th.
     
    #26 hcyong, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  7. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    The problem with "neutral observers", "fans' interests" etc. is that there are no representatives. How do you know what the fans want? Some fans want this, some wants that. In the end, you can't please everyone.

    So, for me, the best thing is let the managers contend among themselves first, and only if there is no solution, go for a toss of coin and maybe use the mechanism you mentioned above.
     
  8. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

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    All the BWF talks for making Badminton friendly and attractive for television.
    And the chinese coach still doesn't get it, that an all-star MS line-up is what everyone is waiting for.

    Maybe LYB should realize that badminton players are also humans, and to achieve a flawless score (ie. LD getting beat by LCW) should not be the main objective.
    Honestly, when "fun" disappears when you play competitive professional badminton (and in fact in every sports), playing becomes more of a hassle. Maybe that is what LD is getting through, and all those chinese players trying to attain crazy objectives.
     
  9. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Totally agree.

    Lin Dan himself was so eager to play. That's the key point most people here fail to mention. Lindna said that he had prepared for months only for beating Taufik in the Sudirman cup. He said also he had not expected LCW's great form. LYB wanted to replace Lindan in the final, it was Lindan insisting to play in the final and he said he's fully confident to beat Taufik, and that's all he's planning to do. There was no reason to change that.

    Many other Chinese coaches had complained Lindan played to much. It was LYB who always on Lindan's side. When Lindan didn't perform well. LYB was quite disappointed and also pissed off. He began to argue and fight Lindan also, which makes LYB's everybody's enemy. If he had replaced Lindan in the final, which would mean the victory of the other coaches. So he had to use Lindan in the final, although he accused Lindan in the public. Lindan himself still insisted he's better than before, and even more mature than before.

    Then if Lindan wins in the final, which means Lindan's right and LYB's wrong. If Lindan loses in the final, which means other coaches' right and still LYB's wrong. So no matter Lindan's win or lose in the final, it always proves LYB's failure.

    But LYB is a lucky guy, the MS listed the last event in the final which would never be processed. So finally LYB's face got saved. Lindan was not happy because he lost his chance to prove himself. and especially he's so confident himself to beat Taufik. Some Chinese coaches were happy because it gave China a 3:0 win for sure, some are happy because it prevents a confrontation inside Chinese team, while some other Chinese coaches were not happy because they wanted to see LYB's failure (no matter Lindan's win or lose), therefore their voices could be heard in the future.

    It's all politics.
     
    #29 2cents, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  10. camclive

    camclive Regular Member

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    Ok then, we add a new rule that if at any point a team is 2-0 down they can play their "Joker" card and choose the order of the remaining games.

    I think its very dangerous all this messing with the game to please a supposed TV audience's needs. In the end you will just rip the soul out of the game and destroy it. It will end up like WWF wrestling.

    When every Sudirman cup final ends 3-2 with the last game ending 32-30 with a mass brawl between the opposing players and coaches.. you'll know I was right.. :)
     
  11. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    Totally disagree with your suggestion that the other coaches can actually go against LYB. Look at LYB's behaviour during interval breaks. He's the boss! Even though he's not the direct coach, he just takes over and directs the players as he likes.
    But I feel sorry for LD. First, LYB's micromanaging of his career will cost him his OG gold. Second, LD's over-confidence in himself means he has no idea how badly he's been playing.He actually believed that he lost to LCW because of LCW's good form, not because LCW has improved to actually outclass him in all depts.As for TH, he has always been lazy playing 3rd class opponents, so scores indicate nothing of his form.But as long as it's not his 3rd or 4th CONSECUTIVE match, his stamina will not be a problem.
     
  12. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

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    Not really.
    The new scoring system was put in place essentially for TV and crowd viewing pleasure. Well, that's what the BWF intended.
    MS is THE biggest event in Badminton that every badminton fans or general audience likes to watch. Add an all-star line-up and you get a winning combination. All the other formats don't even come close. Why do you think people request so much matches like Taufik vs Lin Dan, or Taufik vs Gade, or LCW vs LD? Yes popularity, and the need to see a match between great players.
    You can't rip the soul of badminton by pleasing crowd in showing the match they've been waiting for. In fact, you're destroying badminton by not showing them.

    You should also see Badminton as a business. Think of it this way: China wins 3-0, the the MS LD vs TH didn't happen, the crowd doesn't like it, the SPONSORS doesn't like it, badminton will get less popular, and less funding, players will be less payed (even though the Sudiman doesn't give players any money), there won't be any need for people to play badminton professionally because of the low winnings, and in the end, badminton dies.
    Of course, that's a worst case scenario, but you can see the majority of badminton fans are disappointed that the match didn't happen. Are you?
     
  13. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Nobody would be that stupid to challenge LYB in public, but in fact, there were several bitter arguments during inside meetings. You just don't know. It's like you always see ducks are so quiet swimming above the water, but you never see what's under the water.
     
  14. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    It is weird itself that people pay more attention in Sudirman cup than individuals tournaments.

    To determine who's the best in MS, just watch any tournament at that moment, the title winner is the best in the world.

    Even Lindan had beat Taufik or vice visa, there would be also not enough to say he is the best. What about Lee CW, he had never lost. What about even players in other divisions?

    That's the whole point I asked at very beginning "Why Sudirman?" thread. Sudirman is not for true badminton lovers, it is purely for those patriots who just want to see their national name instead of individuals, but badminton is not a team event.
     
  15. huangkwokhau

    huangkwokhau Regular Member

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    There is always politics inside badminton organization from BAM, CHinese association, PBSI....I think all of them should unite how to promote the badminton widely...at the end of theday...it will benefits the tournaments, prize money, also for players.....

    We should not blame any parties as BWF should be firm with his own rules first before alllowing all team managers submit the play of orders....I think BWF should decide which game to go first...because it is the head of badminton ....BWF should not allow the draw to begin with...

    We can not blame LYB as every coaches wanted their team to win badly....I wish BWF should have decided the outcome, not with the draw.....

    Hope that it wont happen again in next Sudirman Cup.
     
  16. huangkwokhau

    huangkwokhau Regular Member

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    It is not true...beside Sudirman cup, we have Thomas cup and Uber cup...even Tennis has Davis cup. Even Golf has president cup and ryder cup....are you saying that Golf and Tennis should be individuals too.

    How do you decide that badminton is not TEAM event??? Badminton can be individual and Team.....period....
     
  17. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    My suggestion to the order of play

    The key points are two:

    1) to make it more interesting for people to watch;
    ..... 1.1 ) to prevent one-sided early ends of the competition
    2) to be fair to both teams.

    Having these two points in mind. I propose the new rule for deciding the order of play.

    1) first match will be decided by both teams list. Two teams submit their wish-list of the order, and mark the 1st watch as 5 points, then the 2nd as 4 points, the 3rd as 3 points, the 4th as 2 points, the 5th as 1 point. Then multiply two teams results, the first match will be decided by the event with the maximum points. For example, if Indonesia wants the following order:
    MS, XD, MD, WD, WS
    then Indonesia writes:
    MS: 5
    XD: 4
    MD: 3
    WD: 2
    WS: 1
    On the China side, they want WS, WD, MD, XD, MS, then China writes:
    WS: 5
    WD: 4
    MD: 3
    XD: 2
    MS: 1
    Then multiply two, we have:
    MD: 9 points
    XD: 8
    WD: 8
    MS: 5
    WS: 5

    Since the MD has the maximum points, so it will be the 1st match to play. Which is the fair result for both team.

    But There are a lot of tricks to submit their orders. If Indonesia figures out China's order. Then for Indonesia, there is no hope to play MS first. But if they adjust their order as
    MS: 4 instead of 5
    XD: 5 instead of 4
    MD: 3
    WD: 2
    WS: 1

    Then XD will be 10 points after multiplication. So it will be the first match to launch.

    Anyway, even though there are tricks to play (which tests each team's wisdom), but it is still guarantee that each team can prevent the least wanted match to be played first.

    2) then the 2nd match will be decided by the loser of the first match (not by the multiplication order list any more). For example, after Indonesia lost their XD, then they can decide which event to be played next. That way, we can help the weaker team to balance the fighting, which will be more interesting to the spectators and TV viewers also.

    Be noted that there is no help for the players who play more than 1 event. Why the order should be good for the team having players playing more events. That's unfair. That encourages the lack of position depth. If you are short of hands, then you could protect yourself if you are smart, otherwise, you should be attacked by your opponents.

    Instead of curretnly that letting the God throws the dice, and then veto God's will. The 2 sides of the competiton can fully determine the order of play through the competition of their strategy.

    The ideal Sudirman final could go as:

    1) XD played first, and INA lost so INA can pick the next match
    2) then INA decided to play MS which is their biggest hope and taufik won
    .....2.1) if Lindan won MS, then it was still INA's turn to pick the next
    .....2.2) INA picked MD, and China won 3:0
    3) then China decided to play WS and won
    4) then INA decided to play MD but still lost. China won 3:1

    So the final would include:
    1) if lindan won, then XD, MS(lindan won), and MD,
    2) if taufik won, then XD, MS(taufik won), WS and MD, and China won 3-1, be noted that if Taufik won, there would be WS, if Lindan won, there would be no WS.

    Both China and Indoneia have nothing to complain. That's the order they ordered.
     
    #37 2cents, Jun 18, 2007
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  18. Smichz

    Smichz Regular Member

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    CH is definitely AFRAID to lose,even only a point.They wanna go for a perfect score,which LD ruined,and LYB wont let that happend again,even if he has to turn down ppl's expectation,by not letting LD appear.
     
  19. Han

    Han Regular Member

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    It's hard to go against Li Yongbo espcecially when he's right. The sequence of arrangement for playing in the final was drawn and the officers did not request for the change until later when TV station and fan requested to make the final more exciting. I was too late in my opinion and why should Team China put themself into unfovarable position?
    Few of the key match up did not materalize in Sudirman Cup like Lin Dan vs Taufik, Chong Wei vs Peter Gade, ... really unfortunate for fan.
     
  20. pjswift

    pjswift Regular Member

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    Sure there would be arguments (or discussions).. LYB would allow that but ultimately he calls the shots.Don't tell me they draw lots to decide.Of course , there's furious movement beneath the calm above the surface but the exposed part of the duck determines where the duck is heading.
     

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