Contenders' strategy to Rio

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by latecomer, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    That's just a coincidence and as Steen Pedersen is realistic enough to understand, Lin Dan is not bothered about never winning SEA PSS/SS titles.

    If any of the WC or OG were to be held in SEA, what do you think ? How many would Lin Dan win? Incidentally, one the Thomas Cup (2010?)was held in MAS, Kulau Lumpur, and he won it for CHN, beating LCW in the process.

    Let me say this, if someone were to offer Lin Dan, say, USD10 million if he can win all the 12 PSS/SS, including the SSF titles in a particular year - do you think he won't go for it and succeed ? I'm very sure he would and retire comfortably.

    Btw, even LCW recently has been saying he wants to be more selective in the tournaments he plays, taking a leaf from Lin Dan, and he has actually skipped a few this year.

    And as for world ranking, it's not based on number of titles won but ranking points garnered. That's how it works. How many of the top 10 players have any titles to their name in any particular year ? At least Lin Dan has two and he's WR3 at the moment.

    But, like I said, Lin Dan's top priority this year is absolutely the Rio Olympics, everything else is secondary, that's a luxury and privilege only he can afford and enjoy for having won too much in his career.
     
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  2. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Precisely, that's why he wasn't ranked a top player this year, nor the last few years, 2015 being the worst in his entire career with 10 (or was it 12 ?) defeats inflicted on him.
     
  3. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    And it will never change the fact that Lin Dan won 2 OG, 5 WC, 6 AE, 3 AG, and a host of others too numerous to list here.

    And LCW himself even said he's willing to relinquish his WR1 position which he did for quite some time well after his doping suspension, to play fewer tournaments, be more selective, just like Lin Dan.

    Just ask LCW how many PSS/SS titles and WR1 (top player) positions he'll gladly trade in for just one WC or OG. You get my point.
     
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  4. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Let me put it in another way. Supposing there is no WC nor OG, we only have the 5 PSS and 7 SS titles, including the SSF on offer. Then we can be sure all the players, without exception, including Lin Dan, Chen Long and LCW, will be competing, aiming and striving to win as many of the 5 PSS, they are the premier ones after all, and as many of the lesser SS as well, with the year-end SSF as the crowning jewel. The 5 PSS would very well be regarded as the Grand Slams of badminton, and the SSF the de facto world championship.

    So, how many SSF and PSS titles do you think Lin Dan will win as compared with LCW ? That's the point.
     
  5. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    There is no point to assume someone's supposed achievement. If you can do it, just do it. If you think that WC or OG is your goal, how does that affect your achievement on other tournaments? The most basic thing on the player's code of conduct is to use the best effort to win a match. Why not win them all if you can do them especially you participate in them? If you think that you have to save energy to focus on a few tournaments because you cannot win everything, it just shows that you DO NOT have what it takes to dominate the world circuit. That is just how it is.
     
    #85 thljcl, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
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  6. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    I am pretty sure that being World NO 1, World Champion, and Olympic Champion at the same time is a great honor. By the way, Lin Dan used to be all three back in 2008 and for a brief period in 2012. But all these three identities are actually quite different from one another. The latter two represents the winner of individual tournaments; the first, well, according to how world ranking supposed to work, means that you are the best player currently. There is no ALL-TIME BEST player. That's what I try to say. I never deny Lin Dan was and still is a great player. Being a top 10 players in the world is by no means a small achievement. All-Time Great, on the other hand, do not really means that you remain at top for all time; that is simply impossible. It really means that you are memorable player for a generation of people because your achievement over extended period of time.
     
    #86 thljcl, Jun 6, 2016
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  7. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    It would be silly to overlook a player who has competed at 60 Superseries finals from 95 finals being contested.
     
  8. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Well, with due respect, thljcl, if you want to continue belabouring the same points and arguments and I have to respond by repeating more or less my same points and arguments, then the debate goes nowhere.

    I'll just make a couple of points to make my stand clearer, if it's not clear enough.

    One, what does the term , All -Time Greatest Player mean to you? What's your criteria ? As far as I'm aware, the great majority, not a simple majority, regard Lin Dan as the GOAT, be they professional players,coaches, amateurs, recreational players or ordinary badminton enthusiasts - and they all are agreed it is based on Lin Dan's overall achievements comprising the titles and accolades won which I needn't elaborate again and again, i.e. 2 OG, 5WC, etc, etc (it's tiresome just repeating them). Mind you, among the experts who have openly admitted Lin Dan as the greatest are none other than some of the greats or greatest in history, no less, viz. Peter Gade, Lee Hyun Il, Xiong Guobao, and even LCW himself once acknowledged 'there is only one Lin Dan', just to name a few. "There is no ALL-TIME BEST player." ? Don't tell me these eminent personalities are not qualified or justified in their assertions or affirmations? Of course, it goes without saying, the appellation GOAT is used on Lin Dan in comparison with his peers, contemporaries and as far as possible with other great players of earlier generations though, admittedly, the farther back you went in the distant past, the more complicated and problematic, even so the advantage clearly favours Lin Dan, regardless of him benefiting from more modern and advanced technology, better training methodology, having many more world class competitors and tournaments, therefore more intense competition, in his era.

    Two,you seem to imply that greatness requires being WR1, WC and OG champion , all three at the same time which, incontrovertibly, applies to Lin Dan in 2008 (and 2007 since there's no WC in Olympic year 2008 but he's still the reigning WC in 2008) and similarly for 2012. Well, as we know, LCW only has one of them, WR1, never the other two. Even Chen Long was WR1 and WC simultaneously in 2014, in addition to winning the most number of PSS/SS titles in 2014. I'd have thought for Lin Dan to be WR1, WC and OG champions a number of times, more than any one else, should qualify him as The Greatest, isn't it ?

    Three, it is possible, mathematically and in reality, that the WR1 position can be attained without winning a single PSS title or any title for that matter - all that's required is to accumulate the most number of ranking points. But it's absolutely impossible to proclaim oneself as WC or Olympic champion without winning either.

    Four, it's true that BWF rated the PSS as major events and yet BWF award higher ranking points to the WC and the OG as seen here http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=15370. Surely, you know why. Try asking those big sponsors who they will give more money to, the World and Olympic Champion or the World Ranked Number One? Obviously they are not created equal, the weight or worth aren't the same.

    Five, little separates the two, Lin Dan and LCW, in terms of the number of titles won so far in their careers, Lin Dan has 62 and LCW, 63, one more. And as you say, LCW has been WR1 for longer than Lin Dan, which, according to you equates to being the top player, disregarding their H2H and other considerations or measurements. In that case, I simply fail to understand why LCW still refuses to hang up his racquet for good despite repeated flops in the WC and the OG, and persists in trying one more time, the last and final one (?) for another crack at Olympic gold at age 33. Why is he still so dissatisfied with what he has already achieved vis-a-vis Lin Dan, according to your standard ?
     
  9. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    Just let's agree to disagree. There is simply no universal agreement between each other. That's fine. We are different from each other.
     
  10. thljcl

    thljcl Regular Member

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    Well. There has been a saying at the end of last year that LCW should not actively seek titles from any tournament other Olympic Games. After all, LCW has been qualified to play for Olympics before the year of 2016 started. He should somehow rest and train. World NO. 1 is not important and so on...

    It's a Chinese news article. I'm not sure that many of you can read Chinese.

    http://www.happybmt.com/bmt/newsView/16263

    Basically, former World Champion Han Jian said that it was enough to just qualify for Olympic Games; it was pointless to win more titles.

    But that's not how LCW thinks. Yes, it is true that he want his first Olympic gold medal for the nation and himself. At some point, it would seem becoming World NO. 1 was almost impossible for someone who was ranked as low as 180. He said to public, he can only try to qualify for Olympic games and get a better seeding.

    At the beginning of the year, though, he was first ranked World NO. 2 after winning the Malaysia Masters. He knew that he had a chance to regain the much coveted status once again. He publicly announced that he would like to be a World NO. 1 before Summer Olympics. In fact, right before Indonesia Open, he publicly said that he hope that he could be World NO. 1 pretty soon.

    The victory over Jan o Jorgensen in Indonesia Open Final is special; because it is because by entering this final, he became World NO. 1 once again. But, Winning the sixth Indonesia Open title and regaining World NO. 1 would be double joy for him.

    It's all in the news. We all know what it takes to regain the top rank, that is To do well in top-tier tournaments, World Championships and BWF Superseries. Don't say that as if he couldn't care less about World Ranking other than Olympic Gold Medal.

    It's fair to say that he wants both.

    http://www.thestar.com.my/sport/badminton/2016/01/28/chong-wei-want-to-be-no-1-again/

    As I said earlier, ideally, he never want any loss in any tournament he played. That's exactly how a player should behave according to code of conduct.

    http://www.thestar.com.my/sport/bad...ed-to-take-world-no-1-seat-at-indonesia-open/

    Yes, he wanted consistency. Not just an Olympic Gold Medal.
     
    #90 thljcl, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  11. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Having won 2 OLY golds, why does LD want to go for a 3rd gold at age 33? He has much to risk to his reputation and surely he could have walked away from this sport while he was on top after London 2012. LD is already financially secured. OLY gold has no purse money like SSP provides, but a 3rd consecutive OLY gold would secure untold endorsement value, history making and guarantee LD as untouchable as I cannot see any player, whether men or women, can win 3 OLY golds (at least in my lifetime) and that would catapult LD into the company of other 3X OLY champs. The same apply to Michael Phelps and Mr Bolt pursuing that 3rd OLY gold.

    LD goal is to make the 2-man CHN MS team for RIO, he succeeded. I think LD would sure like that WR1 or 2 going into RIO but he accepts that he is never going to catch LCW or CL. However, LD has to participate in these SS and SSP to avoid being penalized by BWF, as such we had seen LD losing to much lower ranked player this year as never before, and led to many posters saying LD is going downhill. I think differently. I think LD prepares himself that to win in RIO, he most likely have to beat both LD and CL, and at best a WR3 or 4 is what his ranking will be at RIO. So why bother to risk injury, show his weapons at these SS/SSP, when his ranking is not going to improve. His one and only target is 3rd OLY gold, even the WC does not interest him, never mind these SSP thingie.

    I gauge LD performance at various stages of this OLY year. First at CO, LD wanted to win that match over LCW. The way LD played at CO is unlike any other performance he showed. It was LD at his best at this stage, even though he lost to LCW but that match could go either way. Next was AE, and again that was a different LD at his best than the LD at the recent IO, where it seemed LD was rushing to catch the earliest flight outta Jakarta.

    Like they say, the 'proof is in the pudding', come RIO, we shall see which LD appears. But I still say, this man pursuing that 3rd gold has something in his plan. If LD gets smoked in RIO as so easily in IO, then what I said in the foregoing is a bunch of rubbish. I was out to lunch in my thinking.

    As for LCW, winning an OLY gold would close out his illustrious career on a high, wins MAS first OLY gold and earns a 1 million ringgit bonus, shoots up his endorsement valve, and maybe upgrade his Dato title. But I am concerned with LCW recent undefeated winning streak and goes to RIO as WR1, the pressure of WR1 and the jinx of winning everything but losing the most important thing. Also in OLY history, I think LD was the only WR1 player to ever won an OLY gold, all previous WR1 player had never won an OLY gold medal in badminton. I rather would like to see LCW going to RIO as WR2 and hope that the draw would pit LD in CL half, but winning IO shoots him to RIO as WR1, it is what it is.

    My 1-dollar bet on who I think will win RIO, it is close between LD and LCW. My bet on LD winning his 3rd gold. Can't wait for RIO to start.
     
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  12. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    -Well, he just withdrew from the AUS Open, and earlier he withdrew from 3 out of 5 tournaments.

    LCW was stretched by JOJ two days ago, got a scare, and probably felt somewhat spent coming to the AUS Open , so didn't want to risk an early upset or injury, or, worse still, losing to Chen Long whom he is slated to play in the final. After all, his top priority is certainly the Rio Olympics like everyone else, the rest is secondary.
     
  13. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    I think LD will like this draw in Rio Olympics
    Round 1 - Hu Yun
    Round 16 - Son Wan Ho
    QF - Jan O Jorgensen
    SF - Lee Chong Wei
    Final - Chen Long
     
  14. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    4 Asian Games. Sorry for correcting you.
     
  15. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Thanks, you're right, 4 AG. I stand corrected.
     
  16. xsakurax

    xsakurax Regular Member

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    I totally agreed with all your point. That is why I think its much better for LCW to go to RIO as 2nd seeded instead of no. 1. Is there a possibility for Chen Long to raise his rank if he win Australia Open?
     
  17. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    All the more, the problem with Lin Dan is having won too much. Had he only achieved less than 50% of what he'd accomplished, it might be a different story now. I mean his motivation issue or lack thereof.

    You know, the moment after his London OG second gold triumph, he openly said that from then on his family comes first, I immediately sensed we might never see the same Lin Dan again. Which professional athlete will say such a thing, unless he or she is nearing retirement or have attained their career goals ? I'm again reminded of the legendary Bjorn Borg who shocked the tennis world by suddenly his retirement at age 26 citing lack of motivation when he was still near his peak.

    Not only did Lin Dan put his family first, he even requested Li Yongbo to structure a special training regimen for him that suits his growing age and personal needs, effectively saying he's not going to train as hard as before, presumably emphasizing quality over quantity. To make matters worse, he's taken two long breaks from active competition and even after his comeback, he's spending considerable time in commercial activities and other distractions now and then, much more than any other players in the international circuit, all clearly documented.

    As we know, he even intentionally transformed his distinctive, renowned highly attacking game to a much more controlled, rallying stroke play. To me, that's as good as losing his forte and becoming a different player, no longer the Lin Dan that he's famed for, not the same player we know, in effect.

    In my humble opinion,I repeat, the magnitude of Lin Dan's motivation and drive to win his third Olympic gold is unlikely to be as great as his second gold at London 2012 which in turn isn't as intense as his first at Beijing'08. Imagine how many times he's had stepped onto the winner's podium for the most coveted prizes in badminton history. He's been there and done that so many times that I believe he is now aiming for a three-peat more for his retirement planning than anything, not discounting his passion for the sport and desire to win but the level of motivation and hunger is just not the same.

    Allow me to say all this to put things in perspective. The next time we feel let down by his lackluster performance or indifferent result and want to criticize him for not living up to our expectations, bear this thought in mind. I know it's difficult to put ourselves in his shoes. After all, badminton is not just a sport, however passionate he is towards it but also a profession for him. Since it is his career and he's already attained his life goals, I'm sure he would wish to start making plans for his future and retirement needs, esp when almost all professional athletes are eventually forced to retire by around age 35 or so and badminton is the only thing they do best having sacrificed the best years and the prime of their lives to it. Just think how much longer you have to live from age 35, feeding yourself and your family, protecting your livelihood, taking care of your loved ones, and doing your part in society. His landing an attractive 10-year sponsorship contract with Yonex is another step in this direction. I wonder how many retired players can switch to coaching and make a successful living.
     
  18. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Quarter final against JOJ at a major event - does that ring a bell? :D
     
  19. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    Why such a big surprise?

    Lin Dan dismantled JOJ at the recent All England.
     
  20. Rob3rt

    Rob3rt Regular Member

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    Well, JOJ ran out of stamina in the second and third set, which will not happen to fitter opponents like LCW, CL, SWH and the likes. Actually it was the other way round against LCW at the Asia Championship semifinal for LD. Still the match at the WC against JOJ was more comfortable than the match at the All England this year and also was a "big surprise" because it was a "major tournament" and all the LD fans expected LD to come out full guns blazing, showing his true self.
     

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