Calling an illegal serve

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Aleik, Nov 3, 2005.

  1. Aleik

    Aleik Regular Member

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    This is NOT a qualm about whether a serve is legal or not. It is an awkward situation I have no answer to. I'm bold enough to suggest that at least half of you here have experienced the very same at some point.

    I remember one match last season where I was playing against someone who consistently served illegally (about which I have no doubt). The racket head clearly contacted the shuttle at and sometimes above WRIST level! I only noticed it about half way through the match, but this player was clearly breaking the rules.

    To bring it up at this point of the match would have been very awkward, and would seem pretentious in any case, considering the amateurish level of badminton being played and the code of "friendliness". I also accepted that the serve did not provide the opponent with any clear advantage (it was never played as a drive), but shrewdly realised that an alteration which would allow a legally rigorous serve may have given my team an advantage.

    We won the match.

    What should I have done?

    Aleik.
     
  2. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Oftentime in a tornment without ref or judge in the earlier rounds, I will call the fault even it is halfway into the match. If it is just a friendly pickup game, I will tell them after the game that their serve "might" be a fault under the rule so it would not hurt their feeling. This is just how I would handle this case.
     
  3. other

    other Regular Member

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    yup same here...as long as it is a friendly game, then talk about it at the end. if it has any pretension of a competitive game, then point it out as soon as they have done it more than twice.
     
  4. timeless

    timeless Regular Member

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    Tournament: Immediately request a service judge. If none are available, ask for an umpire and directly ask them to closely watch everyone's service. It's impartial and fair, and most importantly, you can focus on the match instead of worrying about illegal services. I asked for a service judge once, and our opponents' illegal service suddenly corrected itself when the judge showed up at court side. Ironically, throughout the match my partner got faulted on his service more than our opponents *LOL*:p.

    Friendly game vs. lesser skilled players: If it doesn't affect the game just let it go. Heck even if it does affect the game, is it so bad to let someone win and be happy once in a while?

    Friendly game vs. equally skilled players: Honestly, I'd say just use your best judgement because every game situation is unique.

    Generally you have a few options in handling such a situation:
    a) Just let it go and take it as an extra challenge.
    b) Tell them in the most polite, politically correct, non-threatening manner.
    a+b) Finish the game, but let them know afterwards.
    c) Use the same service against them and observe how they handle the same situation. Who knows, you might learn something.
    d) Any combination of the above, or any other creative way you can come up with.

    Finally, some people just never learn, and are so afraid to lose that they always cheat or have a nasty manner about them. Simply never play with these people again as they'll eventually find themselves with no one to play with at all. Life is too short to waste on them, and there are plenty of nice badminton players around!
     
  5. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    I think u mean "waist"? :rolleyes:
     
  6. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    Like most others here, I usually just let it pass if it's a friendly game. If it's a competitive match, and the opponents are getting a clear advantage, I won't let it pass however. I usually say something like "if you serve like that again I'm going to start bitching about it", with a smile. (Often this actually puts some pressure on the server, in that he becomes overly conscious of the way he is serving, which usually creates errors...)

    And next time, if there is no service judge available, I start bitching about it. Somehow this usually makes the opponents more annoyed than me. :D
     
  7. badrad

    badrad Regular Member

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    On the subject of service faults, last Saturday I saw this idiot (who was receiving serve) tossing the shuttle back to the server 3 or 4 times telling him to re-serve the shuttle. This was during a game - which was supposed to be 'fun' but gradually turned ugly since everyone seemed to be bugged by this idiot (including the idiot's partner). The kid with the questionable serve started smashing at the idiot's head, and scored several hard hits.

    As Timeless said, it's a matter of judgment, and how you approach the problem. Being rude and arrogant doesn't accomplish much other than getting head shots. That idiot was exactly that anyways, he does have a personality disorder...

    As a side note, I have seen this kid serve and I don't see any glaring serivce fault - although he does serve quickly upon getting in position - but nothing illegal.
     
    #7 badrad, Nov 3, 2005
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  8. SandeepD

    SandeepD Regular Member

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    He could have meant 'wrist' - that is technically part of the rule of a legal serve, right? I don't think it's as significant in terms of the advantage it gives you as serving with point of contact above the waist, but still........
     
  9. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    ???

    I don't think in the rules, it ever metioned "wrist"? Or, I could be wrong. The only thing i remember reading is, it should be below "waist" level, while racket pointing down ward. :rolleyes:

    Of course there's huge advantage, if u don't serve below waist. Otherwise, i will jump smash when i serve and score right there. ;)
     
  10. msharpes

    msharpes Regular Member

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    Wrist isn't explicitly mentioned but hand is,

    11.1.4 The shaft of the server's racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction to such an extent that the whole of the head of the racket is discernible below the whole of the server's hand holding the racket;

    Can get people lots of times, often see it called at big tournaments.
     
  11. SandeepD

    SandeepD Regular Member

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    I got this from some rules website:
    9.1.6 the shaft of the server’s racket at the instant of hitting the shuttle shall be pointing in a downward direction to such an extent that the whole of the head of the racket is discernibly below the whole of the server’s hand holding the racket

    For this I actually meant if you follow the rule about the racquet head being below the hand, then serving above waist could still be a good advantage. Not as great as you say though because a smash would be hard to do while following 9.1.6 :p

    Also, you can't ignore the rule about keeping both feet in contact with ground when you serve........too many things stopping the jump smash even if you ignore the waist rule.

    EDIT: Sorry msharpes, I was writing my post when you had already given the rule.
     
    #11 SandeepD, Nov 3, 2005
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2005
  12. Aleik

    Aleik Regular Member

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    Time to settle a few things I didn't explain before.

    The match wasn't a friendly. It was a team tournament final, so, regardless of the standard of play, I felt that something needed to be done if the serve might have had any advantageous effect for the opposition. I still maintain that the situation was relatively friendly, which is why I wondered whether it was right to say anything.

    What struck me about the serve was that it was above wrist (and indeed waist) level, which is such an appalling fault at any stretch of the imagination. I'm a very fair player, and normally I'd just go with the flow, but given the situation and the blatancy of the error it's maybe foolish to let something like that slip.

    On the other hand, it's not in me to be such a tight so and so. I let it pass and said nothing more until now. The problem is that there may arise some similar situations in higher levels of play, and I might rue the fact that my team lost a match which was partly influenced by foul play. Where is the cut-off point? When do I decide "this year I'm not going to let anything past me"?

    Aleik.
     
  13. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Good point! I mis-understood SandeepD's post as "the non racket hand". My fault... :p
     
  14. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    The kid needs control.

    I have seen some old folks who intentionally serve before the opponents are ready. They even ignore the request to re-serve :eek: and assume the point was won!!!

     
  15. SandeepD

    SandeepD Regular Member

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    Aleik, what should have been done seems clearer to me with the more you reveal. For example, during team practice one day someone new came along and started playing against me and a partner. This person had a highly illegal serve which allowed him to drive the shuttle at high speed. My partner and I carried on playing as well as we could, but after the third time he did this I mentioned casually that the serve seemed illegal. He couldn't actually believe me and asked if I was joking.

    At the end of the game, when he had kept up this faulty service I said he should definitely check it out with our team captain. We too are in a friendly competitive league, but one in which the opposing teams wouldn't have any hesitation calling this fault to attention. I hadn't ever met this person before, but I can't see anything wrong in trying to promote fair play in badminton - this view was reinforced by the fact that I knew it would cost us some points in competition.

    Your case seems more awkward because the person committing the fault was a stranger on another team, but in my example the guy was a stranger to me too and it wasn't even a competitive match or anything. Letting this sort of thing go usually works out alright for true 'friendly' games just between beginners - though even here it seems to me that allowing bad habits to carry on will only be trouble for the player in question later. However, if you allow someone to carry on with the faulty serve in competition, you're not doing anyone any real favours. It's awkward, but if you are going by the rules you should feel that you are striving for the real game of badminton to be played.

    9.6 The server shall not serve before the receiver is ready, but the receiver shall be considered to have been ready if a return of service is attempted.

    This rule has bothered me from when I first saw it, since my instinct when someone has served but I'm not ready is to try to swipe at it with a poor reaction shot. If the opponents have done this, then the older guys are technically right to ignore the request to re-serve.
     
  16. Russki Bear

    Russki Bear Regular Member

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    Yeah, and those that serve milliseconds after you raise your racquet which I suppose is technically fine but it doesn't give you time to 'settle'. So I never raise my racquet until I am settled and if my racquet isn't raised as far as I am concerned I am not ready to receive.
    If they get hasty sometimes I let them stew for a few seconds when they're ready to serve.
     
  17. timeless

    timeless Regular Member

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    It seems to me you've put enough thought into this issue already, and you probably know the answer to your own question.

    There is no room for foul play, cheating, or the like, intentional or otherwise, in tournament play let alone all sports. Regardless of the level of play, in organized sports, everyone involved has put some degree of time, commitment and sacrifice to be there. Unfair behaviour ruins the fun and sportsmanship for everyone. I believe it would be best if everyone did what they could to curb unfair play as long as it didn't affect the overall sportsmanship of any situation in a negative manner.
     
  18. Noob848

    Noob848 Regular Member

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    if i were you, i would stop play and ask for a judge if it was a serious game or tournament, if your rallying or something then w.e
     
  19. tobradex

    tobradex Regular Member

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    Just for Fun. Then Fine.

    If you are in a tourney then I'd also say call a judge over (regardless of Tournament level - since you should play by the rules anyway).

    But I think you indicated it was just for fun right? Personally I think mentioning it to them afterwards is fine if it really bugs you all that much. Otherwise maybe tackle it as a challenge?

    The exception I would say is if they knew they were doing it and did it on purpose to gain an advantage over you or to spite you (heh you're prolly thinking "spite"? Yea I said spite, it happens). I mean if you are supposedly playing in a "friendly" atmosphere, you should be able to call out cheating in a "friendly" way too.

    Just cause you're nice don't mean you have to be easy and stupid.
     
  20. event

    event Regular Member

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    This is the way I look at it. Unfortunately, I end up being the unpopular one. When a weaker player serves illegally, I usually elect to mention it after the game. The trouble is that where I play, some of the better club players only serve illegally. One woman is very short and serves on such an upward angle that her racquet head is often at armpit level. The chair of the city's association serves with a flat racquet normally and does chest-level overhand backhand drive serves (which are so easy to spot now that I would much rather smash them than call them). These people have all been competing for years and so my mentioning it is never a friendly suggestion which could help them avoid having all their serves disqualified in a tournament because obviously they get away with this in tournaments. Amazingly enough, that makes me the only person who cares about it. What is more amazing is that, despite the obvious absence of any kind of rule enforcement, friendly or otherwise, only a very small percentage of the local players serve illegally. At maybe ten percent, it is higher than anywhere else I've played but considering no one complains in or out of tournaments, it's a wonder everyone doesn't serve illegally.
    If I were meeting these people in tournaments, there would be no question about insisting on a service judge. I find it very difficult to ignore in recreational play and end up just trying to avoid these certain players. It is possible that they simply don't know the rules but this seems highly unlikely. On the other hand, if I am the only one who complains and if no one does in tournaments, maybe they truly can believe that this proves that they are serving legally.
     

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