Badminton -- team or individual sport

Discussion in 'Hong Kong / Chinese Taipei / China Open 2003' started by rejang, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    kwun, you highlighted some very good points too.
    I think either individual or team sport format would excels in america media. Look at golf and tennis, both individual sports that are doing just as well in the media as team sports like hockey and basketball. We the fans (and IBF) have to pick one format. Right now, it is murky like you have said, leaving lotta room for manipulation in the grey zone.

    Although it looks like cheating, i think in other sports it is a common practice. For ex. Auto racing. They have individual star drivers that belong to a team, be it Honda, Penske, Ferrai, etc. If a component of the Honda car failed, it is not illegal to steal parts from another honda car in order to continue the race.
     
    #21 cooler, Nov 17, 2003
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2003
  2. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    I can see ur idea, and I agree. However, it's always easier to say than apply for an action, why:

    1. Inspection takes time, sudden cases will delay games. Imagine a waiting line for MRI etc.

    2. How serious the injury (i am sure every player more and less can get a whole list of history) is, could be varied by different ppl. Put this way, I can claim some of my 5 yrs old injury just "bothers" me today, and I don't think I want to risk it. Even though all the doctors might say, "good enough to get on", if anything really happens in the future, who will go to the court and who will pay if IBF loses???

    3. The so-call third party, will this "party" be fair enough? To some ppl, yeah, to others, might not. If arguement being brought out, same debate over and over again.

    4. Who will handle the cost for all the expensive checkups (CT scan, MRI, etc) and staff? IBF? Players? Coaches? National teams? Fans (triple ticket price, etc)?
     
  3. fan

    fan Regular Member

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    darn I write too slow.

    Can’t be more disagree with the point about Andre smile after losing the match. If for one second you think he smile because he pocket half million US dollars, then you are off to the wrong track. I assume you watch tennis too. The only thing makes Andre smile on the court is good tennis. He still smile even he lost is because he gave all he had and was beaten by a truly better guy on that day. You think Andre not retiring because of money. We don’t it know for sure. But one thing for sure is that the money he got out from that tournament was smaller portion compare to the endorsement and all the prize he had earned all year.

    I don’t want to get into the physical fitness comparison between T and B. The bottom line is no cheating in sports. And if one association dominate a sport through better talent, true talent, then so be it. Whether it is good for the sport or not you just can’t ask the better players to back down. It is this kind of mentality lead to cheating and manipulation situation.

    I don’t have the luxury of watching badminton matches like most of you do. But from what I read and hear, the badminton situation has gone far beyond ‘walkovers.’ It involves the umpire, linesmen and even the on/off of the air-conditioning. It is just pathetic to see such a good sport has to come to such a mess. Ok what else can possibly coming to boost teams’ advantage. If you let one slip, then it just keep coming until it is out of hand.
     
  4. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Agree.

    Actually, many so-call "individual" sports involves "team strategy" as well:

    1. Diving / Gymnastics: This kinda sports highly rely on "starting value" (difficulty lvl). Many teams using one player (usually a rising future star) to "mis-lead" opponents. S/he will be very aggressive, and pick the most difficult moves. Why? If s/he could finish it, s/he will get a chance to clinch the title. If not, opponents still might get the feeling of "necessary to be fancy" which will result into higher risk to make mistakes. Therefore, his/her teammate (relatively conservative) can win thanks for other ppl's mistake.
    Good example: Guo Jinging (Diving, during Fu Mingxia "Dynasty"), Lu Li (Gymnastics, Balance beam, 96 Olympic)

    2. Cycling / Car Racing: Clearly, the individual champ are the legends and being remembered by fans. However, their teammates should be given huge credits for team work:
    2.1 "Blocking": needless to say, guiding ur hero to the final and less the opponent smell the smoke. Ex: Dale ErnHart got killed in accident, while attempting block others for his teammate.
    2.2 "Leading": similar as #1. A young rising star try to be extra aggressive at the way beginning. This way, opponents have to "follow" to not being behind. However, even they will be all out of gas (cycling) at the end, or the rhythm will be disturbed.
     
  5. ants

    ants Regular Member

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    Re: From the Malay Mail

    Way to go Choong Han.. what a true sportsman!
     
  6. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i guess i did have a point after all those babbling... ;)

    in the following, i may pose more questions than answers. but i hope my analysis and questions will guide the discussion into more constructive discussion than criticism towards a certain countries.

    badminton, individual or team? the identity problem

    badminton is neither an individual sport nor a team sport. we are sitting in this no-man's land.

    badminton is branded as a individual sport and most audience views badminton as an individual sport. most audience *wants* badminton to live to its tradition and reputation as the fair sport and be an individual sport.

    in reality, there are conflicts to the individual sport ideal. badminton players are not managed as individuals but instead they are managed as a team. each badminton team supports the individual players in many ways, for example, venue, coaching, accomodation, travel expense, salary. each team represents a country as a whole and not the individual players. each team is also sponsored by corporation who relies on the exposure of the players for promotion.

    the overall goal of the team as a result does not neccessarily coincide with the goal of each individual. after all teh dust is settled, no one cares about the runner up. in order to maximize the championship winning of each country, some may resort to some team tactics.

    badminton in a fork road

    so i think what we have identified is not an identity for badminton, but instead we have identified a fork in the road for badminton.

    do we say badminton is an individual sport, if so, regulations must be put in so countries cannot use the team tactics.

    or do we say badminton is a team sport, in which we will not only lose the identity of an individual sport, but also let in a slew of team tactics into badminton that will unfortunately taint the original form of badminton.
     
  7. tinkerbella122

    tinkerbella122 Regular Member

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    wow ... good points kwun and qidong!! hmm ... badminton - individual or team sport ... that's a really tricky question to answer to ....
     
  8. krantikt

    krantikt Regular Member

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    thought provoking thread

    some really good argument. Initially I was quite convinced with the thought about China doing what they wish, since they have the power, but on second thought, might not after be in the best interest of the game.

    Sure as the others mentioned, once there is more money involved, the problem should be automatically solved, as there is less dependency.

    The key is, if the event is not a team event, like Sudirman cup, then teamplay should be avoided. (i.e. if there is proven team play in the first place, not guilty until proven :) ).
     
  9. krantikt

    krantikt Regular Member

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    I tend to agree with the title being a bit misleading with the wonderfull argument in the thread. it is not necessarily dirty trick by china...i think the title should be Badminton -- team or individual sport.
     
  10. newplayer

    newplayer Regular Member

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    sour grapes

    Exploiting a loophole? Who are you to judge the Chinese team? For your information,
    all the Chinese National players and coaches are paid by the Chinese government,
    so the job of the team is to get the gold medals for China; which player gets the
    gold is totally secondary. Maybe your priority is to get your money's worth from the
    matches, but the Chinese' priority is to get gold for their country.

    This is totally irrelevant, can you name a single ATP or grandslam event where
    the players represent their county instead of themselves? In all 4 grandslams
    every player plays for themselves and pockets all the winnings, each one of them
    has a totally differenty coach. Davis cup is the only exception, but it's a team
    event so it doesn't count.

    To sum it up, I think you people are just jealous that the Chinese players have been
    winning so many titles. After all, we are talking about sports here, the Chinese
    coaches have the luxury of asking their players to give walkover matches to
    their teammates BECAUSE there are always so many good Chinese players in
    late stages of big tournaments, if your country could match China on this aspect,
    I'm sure the Chinese would be forced to play to their best abilities in every single
    match.

    newplayer
     
  11. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    unfortunately, I expect it would be the opposite.
    The stronger the opposition is, the more reason there is to conserve energy for the next match.

    But, if the opposition were stronger, there might be less all-Chinese matches...
    (then somebody would be complaining about the all-Indo or all-Dane or all-Whoever matches)
     
  12. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    Ok, advice taken. ;)

    just want to point out that this is potentially a sensitive topic, so i urge participants to not be overly emotional over the discussions. remember to be polite and respect others and their opinions.
     
  13. newplayer

    newplayer Regular Member

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    How so? As far as I can tell, the only way that other countries can stop the Chinese
    players from giving each other walkover matches in Quarter or Semi finals is to
    defeat most of the Chinese players before the Quarter or Semi final stages. As long
    as relatively large number of Chinese players can make it into Quarter or Semi
    finals of major tournaments, chances are that they will be playing against
    each other before the finals, and that would give the Chinese team the opportunity
    to best prepare for the finals in whatever way they see fit.

    If the oppositions were stronger, the Chinese wouldn't be giving each other
    walkover matches -- as they won't be playing each other in Quarter or Semi
    finals of every major tournament. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    I don't have a problem with an all-Indo or all-Dane or all-Whoever match, as
    long as they do so without taking drugs or fixing the match referees.

    newplayer
     
  14. other

    other Regular Member

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    well i don't believe that there is any drug taking or referee fixing in the all-Chinese matches, so from your own admission, you shouldn't have a problem with them? :D

    these are professional players, not professional entertainers. They do what's best for them, their team, coach and country (ok....debateable in which order;)) and not pleasing the badminton audiance by giving 200% in every match.
     
  15. justin2net

    justin2net Regular Member

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    I'm siding with other. I doubt there is doping or any kind of malformed exploitation. I also think that it should remain as a team sport, since I personally don't sense much difference if all of them were individual competitors. It would also cause too much competition inbetween one nation's players.

    Btw, newplayer i sent you a pm.
     
  16. checkthemc

    checkthemc Regular Member

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    I have to agree with Lazy on most points.

    This is just like school. The cheating rate is up to 90% I believe.:( If the children cheat so often, how can we expect them to be different when they grow up? Theres not much anyone can do about it.
     
  17. newplayer

    newplayer Regular Member

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    They'd better not be taking drugs, the 2000 Olympics swimming team drug scandal
    was embrassing enough for all the Chinese athletes in the last 5 years.

    I absolutely DO NOT have a problem with the good performance of the Chinese
    badminton team, I think they are doing a very good job, and I wish them to win
    many many more gold medals for China.

    This is the right attitude. The No.1 job for the Chinese badminton players is to
    win gold for their country, not to please every single Joe Blow in the world.

    newplayer
     

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