are we approaching a new era of the 4 "heavenly kings"?

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by kwun, Jan 24, 2007.

  1. sshuang90

    sshuang90 Regular Member

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    LCW? Give me a break.
     
  2. virtualkidneys!

    virtualkidneys! Regular Member

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    chen jin shouldnt be up there yet but very soon he definitly will be up there.Hes ranked no.2 in the world at the moment so he almost there he jst needs the practice to be able to beat lin dan and gade more often.
     
  3. Blurry D

    Blurry D Regular Member

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    I would think that KJ would me the last era as he will be pahsed out pretty soon. CJ i think he will be the next yang yang..He is so young and he is already world no 2...One thing i really like about him is that he smiles after every match.It does not matter he lose or win.. he will always have a geniuen smile on his face.......He is amazing!!!!
     
  4. kimpe_bultang

    kimpe_bultang Regular Member

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    Well, actually, I think that Henry Saputra should be in that too.. He was a great plyr, and now is a great coach!! He's beaten Yang Yang quite a bunch of times, and Yang Yang has nvr beaten him..:D :D It is just too bad that he got injuries, and couldn't play anymore!! :eek: :p

    And I agree with Syaoran (Tarek), haha, Bao Chunlai is also great.. He's improving now, and has always tried his best... :D he has improved on his 'concentration', now he can concentrate more, last time.. He could just 'blank out' suddenly in the game.. He really has improved!! :cool:
     
  5. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    I wouldn't say Icuk Sugiarto is in the same league as Yang Yang, Zhao Jianhua or Morten Frost Hansen. Icuk has been labelled in Indonesia as a one hit wonder. The only major title that Icuk won was the 1983 World Championship by beating Liem Swie King 18-17 in the third game. That victory was stained by widespread rumours that the 20 year old Icuk at the time only beat Swie King in the final because Swie King was "pressured" or "forced" (Indonesian/Javanese style) to lose and give Icuk the title. Those who watched the final suspect this because Swie King gave the impression that he threw away the match at 17-17 in the third game by obviously hitting the shuttle out. The rumour was that the government wanted Icuk to win because he was a native Indonesian and Swie King was a Chinese Indonesian. Until Icuk won the 1983 World Championships no native Indonesian had ever won a major badminton title while numeorus Chinese Indonesians had done so. The government for the reasons of national pride and raising the profile of badminton amongst native Indonesians preferred Icuk to win rather than Swie King.

    After winning the 1983 World Title Icuk's form plummeted because he was treated like royalty and didn't trained hard enough. He often lost to obscure players such as the later doubles specialist Tian Bing Yi in the early round of All England. Never won against Yang Yang. He was often abused by the Indonesian crowd in Jakarta when he lost to players from other countries to tears. Judging from his resume Icuk wouldn't be classified as a great player in the class of Yang Yang, Zhao JianHua or Morten Frost Hansen.
     
    #25 sabathiel, Feb 20, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  6. Linus

    Linus Regular Member

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    It's an interesting topic to talk about the current 4 "Heavenly King" in MS. I guess Kuwn took the concept from the Hong Kong Canton Pop Music where the titles are usually decided by the number of songs that won then awards or top the charts. If we used the same criteria and look at the results of main badminton tournament in 2005/2006, this is what we have in the attachement.

    Note: I only included the 5* and 6* events, plus All England and the other major events.

    By number of major titles won, the order of merit would be:
    (1) LD, clearly miles ahead of the rest with 10 titles out of 27
    (2/3) TH and CH, joint second with 4 titles each
    (4) LCW, 3 titles
    (5/6) PG and LHI, joint 5th position with 2 titles each
    (7/8) CJ and BCL with 1 title each

    So at the end of 2006, the 4 "Heavenly King" should be LD, TH, CH and LCW.

    But since CH has retired, who will fill the 4th spot? Personally I would argue PG would deserve that spot as he has always there or thereabout in major events, although age is catching up with him. Not to mention he just won the MO in January.

    For the start of 2007, I would vote for LD, TH, LCW and PG.
     

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    #26 Linus, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  7. kimpe_bultang

    kimpe_bultang Regular Member

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    I would vote for Lin Dan, Lee Chong Wei, Peter Gades and Bao Chunlai.. Taufik is not consistent.. Smtimes he's great, other times he's lousy.. You know what I mean..
     
  8. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    I was looking at the MS results of the AE (being the most prestigious then) during which periods the players mentioned by Kwun were prominent and the following was the picture:

    Yesteryear

    1982 MORTEN FROST DEN
    1983 LUAN JIN CHN
    1984 MORTEN FROST DEN
    1985 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN
    1986 MORTEN FROST DEN
    1987 MORTEN FROST DEN

    1988 I. FREDERIKSEN DEN
    1989 YANG YANG CHN
    1990 ZHAO JIANHUA CHN


    Sugiarto was nowhere in sight, whilst Frost won 4 times, Zhao twice and the popular Yang, only once. Maybe if we take into account the other less prestigious IBF Grand Prix events, the picture may improve, but I doubt by much.

    Morten Frost was by far the most consistent, better than Yang Yang, it would appear. Of course, Frost was playing in more familiar European territory. And if we take into account Zhao's two wins against none from Taufik Hidayat thus far, Zhao appeared to have not only the flair and talent, he also had better consistency. And I would add, greater determination as his second AE win came 5 years after! ;)

    It was then a battle for supremacy in MS between Denmark and China and it was Denmark which won 5 titles to 4! Indonesia and Malaysia were not as dominant somehow.

    This Era

    1999 PETER GADE DEN
    2000 XIA XUANZE CHN
    2001 PULLELA GOPICHAND IND
    2002 CHEN HONG CHN
    2003 MUHD HAFIZ HASHIM MAS
    2004 LIN DAN CHN
    2005 CHEN HONG CHN
    2006 LIN DAN CHN


    Under "This Era" more title holders (6) appeared during the last 8 years than the 5 champions during the 9-year period under "Yesteryear".

    But Chen Hong and Lin Dan both won twice. Chen Hong got my vote for being the more determined winner over his younger compatriot, Lin Dan, in 2005. And it is sad that he should retire now when he could be more than a match to any of the top players.

    Maybe Taufik's name will be added to the AE honours roll this year to make it 7 different holders and justify "This Era" for men's singles as being more competitive than before. If TH should win, he will certainly hold the prestigious record of being the AE, WC and Olympic champion -one very difficult to be broken thereafter! By all accounts, TH is working very hard to make his dream come true, and if he is as determined as Zhao Jianhao, TH deserved to be the greatest!

    What more, with the new 21-point rally scoring system, more upsets are in the offing as when WR1, Lin Dan was abruptly disposed of by South Korea's Park Sung Hwan in the first Super Series, the Malaysia Open! :D
     
    #28 Loh, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  9. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    Whilst Yang Yang has only won All England once this is compensated by winning the prestigious World Championships two times consecutively (the only player to date who has achieved this) in 1987 and 1989. Zhao Jian Hua also has won the World Championships in 1991 and won All England twice in 1985 and 1990. The 5 years gap of Zhao Jianhua's All England victories is due to the fact that he wasn't playing international badminton for a few years for reasons only the Chinese badminton establishment knew (there was a rumour saying that he tried to defect to the West or that he was ill). Morten Frost Hansen never won the World Championships but was runner-up twice in 1985 and 1987. Icuk Sugiarto apart from losing in the first round of All England after winning the 1983 World Championships to Tian Bing Yi (later Li Yong Bo's doubles partner) has never made it to the All England finals. I can't even recall Icuk winning lesser prestigious tournaments after his triumph at the 1983 World Championships in Copenhagen. I am also almost sure that Icuk has never won against his nemesis Yang Yang as Icuk has problems playing against left handers. Icuk's other notable achievement is making the semifinals of the World Championships in 1987 and 1989.
     
    #29 sabathiel, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  10. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Was Yang Yang the greatest player during his era?

    Following Sabathiel's elaboration on Yang Yang, I searched the web and found a detailed writeup on his achievements in the Yang Yang UK badminton product website:

    "The former World Badminton Champion. He is the only badminton player in the world that has won all the major tournament titles which include All England Championships, World Championship, Grand Prix Final, World Cup Championship, and Olympic Champion. He has a record of winning more than 23 international championships.

    A former Malaysia National Badminton Coach who helped the nation to win the Thomas Cup in 1992 after 25 years.

    Nowadays Yang Yang focuses on both his own range of branded products and coaching badminton. His enthusiasm for game is still as strong as ever."

    His titles include.....

    1984 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
    1985 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
    1986 THOMAS CUP INDONESIA
    1986 WORLD GRAND PRIX FINALS MALAYSIA
    1986 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
    1986 HONG KONG OPEN HONG KONG
    1986 CHINA NATIONAL BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
    1987 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS CHINA
    1987 SWEDEN OPEN SWEDEN
    1987 MALAYSIA OPEN MALAYSIA
    1987 INDONESIA OPEN INDONESIA
    1987 CHINA NATIONAL GAMES CHINA
    1988 OLYMPIC DEMONSTRATION KOREA
    1988 THOMAS CUP MALAYSIA
    1988 WORLD CUP THAILAND
    1988 SINGAPORE OPEN SINGAPORE
    1989 AUSTRALIA 200 ANNIVERSARY INVITATION AUSTRALIA
    1989 WORLD BADMINTON CHAMPIONSHIPS INDONESIA
    1989 WORLD CUP CHINA
    1989 ALL ENGLAND CHAMPIONSHIPS U.K.
    1989 JAPAN OPEN JAPAN
    1990 THOMAS CUP JAPAN
    1990 ASIAN GAMES CHINA

    Indeed Yang Yang would have been the greatest among his peers if we judged him for winning the three most prestigious titles during his time: AE, WC and Olympics (even though it was a Demonstration Sport in the 1988 Seoul Olympics. Badminton only officially became a medal sport in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics and the famous Indonesian couple, Alan Budikusuma and Susi Susanti won the MS and WS gold medal respectively.)

    So now we have to await Taufik Hidayat's turn to emulate Yang Yang if the former should win the forthcoming AE at Birmingham. :)
     
  11. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    Don't forget Lin Dan would also emulate Yang Yang if Lin Dan wins the Olympic gold in Beijing 2008 as Lin Dan would have won All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold. I suppose with All England 07 is just around the corner we would have to wait and see if Taufik can capture this year's title. Taufik already stated that he would retire after Beijing 2008 but I wonder if he would carry on if by then he still hasn't won All England yet. Taufik is still young enough to play another 4 years after Beijing 2008.

    I wonder if winning All England, World Championships and Olympic Gold during one's career is a measure of greatness if Yang Yang, Taufik and Lin Dan have achieved that? Maybe if it becomes a common achievement we have to wait for ground breaking All England titles such as done by Rudy Hartono, 7 consecutive titles and 8 overall titles or winning the World Championships 3 times in a row (breaking Yang Yang's record of 2 consecutive World titles). The difference is now the World Championships is held every year instead of every 2 years during Yang Yang's time.
     
  12. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    IMO, each to their own "greatness"...

    ...true, the past great players have their own achievements and greatness as we can't take anything away from them...:cool:
    ..but for one Taufik, *IF* he wins the upcoming AE, he'll probably go down in badminton history as arguably the *only* shuttler(MS) to ever win, not only the AE, WC & OG titles but winning the AG(Asian Games), not only once but back-to-back, as well(eventhough some would argue that the AG title doesn't really count much and its not a IBF/BWF sanctioned event; though another CHN shuttler also won it back to back)..;) :cool:
     
  13. Joyous

    Joyous Regular Member

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    In my opinion failing to win one of the major titles (OG, WC, AE) doesn't equate he/she is not a great player. As the saying goes 'to be in the right place at the right time' also applies to a player. To be in the right frame in all aspects in any tournaments is so crucial.
    The recent MO in Kl is a fine example. TH & LD are both great players but they were drawn to meet in the 1st round...and the result could have gone in TH's favour. And then again, LD failed in the 2nd round but bounce back at the KO.
    But if statistics is to be a benchmark, Yang Yang's consistency in winning tournaments overshadows Zhao JH's pure talent and skills. I don't believe that any professional badminton player would in his right sense of mind only target certain tournaments in his career & forego trying to do well in general.
     
  14. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Yes indeed if a player can win the AE, WC and Olympics titles during his career, and if we have to compare who is the greatest, it will be the number of times that he has won in these three events.

    As we have debated before whether Taufik Hidayat is greater than Rudy Hartono, I agree that Rudy's consistent record at the AE has no peer, the AE then being the unofficial world championships as there was no World Championships nor the Olympics for badminton as we now have.

    Rudy's AE record:

    1965 E. KOPS DEN
    1966 TAN AIK HUANG MAS
    1967 E. KOPS DEN
    1968 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1969 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1970 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1971 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1972 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1973 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1974 RUDY HARTONO INA

    1975 S. PRI DEN
    1976 RUDY HARTONO INA
    1977 FLEMMING DELFS DEN
    1978 LIEM SWIE KING INA
    1979 LIEM SWIE KING INA
    1980 PRAKASH PADUKONE IND
    1981 LIEM SWIE KING INA
     
  15. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    I think to be more representative, an event should not exclude others not belonging to the group. Events like the SEA Games, the Commonwealth Games and even the Asian Games are not representative in this sense as a badminton powerhouse like Denmark is excluded from participating.
     
  16. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    But we are talking about their entire career which could span 10 years or more. A player needs to be at his best to win tournaments. The top professionals would want to pit their skills at the highest level and the three specific events mentioned provide this opportunity. Only the best at that point in time can win! :)
     
  17. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    Here is an analysis of Taufik Hidayat by Wikipedia, it is interesting to note that Taufik says that Lin Dan is the best player ever:


    "To some fans, Taufik is perhaps the world's most spontaneously innovative badminton singles player today. According to them, Taufik does not use the methodical play adopted by Chinese players like Lin Dan (much like Ivan Lendl's tennis style), Taufik plays a natural game, full of grace, anticipation, freshness and risks. He is the only first-rung player who retains the 15-point style of play in the revised, current 21 point system.
    Taufik's strengths lie primarily in his powerful backhand, his tapped forehand drop shot and tantalising net-play. His weaknesses lie is his reluctance to kill from high forehand clears, his impatience with loud crowds and his penchant for returning a net dribble with a net dribble, even when the opponent is dangerously close to the net.
    In many ways, Taufik's style mirrors the prowling athleticism of one of the greatest players ever to grace the badminton court - Zhao Jianhua. Like Zhao, Taufik looks lazy, moves lazily and wins lazily. But, except when he is annoyed or distracted, Taufik (like Zhao) is anything but lazy. The tactician in him is better than the athlete in him. This is probably why he makes more unforced errors than any other player at his level of ability and skill. (BN)
    Hidayat is known for his relaxed smooth playing style and is one of the best all round players in the world. According to many players he has the ability to win against any player in the world when he really sets his mind to it. On the other hand he can lose to lower ranked players when he is not completely focused. His lack of consistency and mental fortitude are often points of criticism. Because of this reputation, many fans believe that if Taufik loses a match to any player it is as much because he didn't care enough as that he was truly beaten. Taufik publicly stated in 2006 that Lin Dan is the best player ever in the world but also described him as being arrogant widely disliked other players. (Taufik was defeated three times by Lin Dan in 2006, at the Thomas Cup semi-final tie, Japan Open final and the Hong Kong Open where Taufik forfeited the match after what he thought was a bad line call at 4-1 to Lin in the first game. Taufik defeated Lin Dan in the final of the 2006 Asian Games individual event on December 9 after losing twice to him in three days in the team event preliminaries and semi-finals and dedicated the sweet victory to his father-in-law and chief of the national sports council, Agum Gumelar.)"

    I have had an argument about who is the greatest before and come to the conclusion that Rudy Hartono is the greatest. One of the benchmark that I use as well as the critics used is this player must be overwhelmingly dominant during his/her era. Using this criteria it is beyond dispute that Rudy Hartono was overwhelmingly dominant during his era just like Roger Federer, Pele, Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan in their respective sports. Taufik while being a great player doesn't deserve the mantle of the greatest because he is erratic, inconsistent and doesn't truly dominate badminton during his era. To be judged the greatest that player must have the aura of invincibility apparent from his/her record and titles won. Defeat must be something that doesn't come easy to this player. Playing style is not a credible criteria to judge greatness as the most recent players would have benefited from the game played by past players and thus would be technically better as well as more exciting to watch.
     
    #37 sabathiel, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  18. Linus

    Linus Regular Member

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    I think the record of Rudy Hartono speaks for itself. His achievement in badminton esp. in AE have also been recognised in a bigger way thru the Times' Asian Heroes (http://www.yonex.com/pdf/RudyHartono.pdf)

    But let's not forget too during that era we weree missing then the sleeping giant, China, who were struggling with internal turmoil and invisible from the international areana. We all remember what happened when China enter the badminton world by storm in the 80s when they showcase the likes of Luan Jin and Han Jian. I mean they dont suddenly obtain that level of skill out of the blue and who knows what would have happened in the 70s if China players were participating in AE.

    I am not trying to diminish Rudy's achievment, which was amazing by any standard. But we need to look at that in proper context.

    The badminton, and to the same extent, the sports world were truely representing the "world" in the 80s after China, the largest populated country joined the global village.

    I agree with Loh that in order to objectively compare the top players achievement, we need to include those events that are open to all (and thus exclude the likes of SEA games and Asia games/championship). In today's context, we also need to include those major opens 5*, 6* and 7*, which will no doubt draw in the best players because of the price money on offer. See my earlier post #26 that compare the major titles for 2005/2006.

    I have included the Asian tournament and should have taken that out. But that would not have altered the overall ranking of the current top 4 players and LD is still the most dominant and consistant MS player at this moment.
     
    #38 Linus, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  19. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Hmmm...

    ..sounds reasonable enough...;)
    ..true but, IMO, if one can win those 3 titles, sure, personally i would rank him/her as "one of the greatest". Why not?? Winning just 1 of them is difficult enough, imagine winning all 3(i know the Olympics didn't start til abt 15 yrs ago)...Because if i think abt it, how can we judge players from 1 generation to another?? How abt the olden greats like Tan Xin Fu & Hou Chia Chiang and all his competitors??..Are we excluding what they've accomplished??..:confused: ;)
     
    #39 ctjcad, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007
  20. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    I read the article about Rudy Hartono in Linus' post. Adding to the criteria of greatness (ie being dominant) that I already mentioned is the obstacles and hardship that Rudy Hartono had to encounter coming from a relatively poor country and humble background with little resources and support to begin with compared to rich countries like England or Denmark or even the more prosperous Malaysia.

    It is true that Rudy's record title numbers is marred by the fact that China was not part of the international badminton fraternity but if we look closer this doesn't tarnish Rudy's achievements. Indonesia, Malaysia and Denmark were badminton powerhouses and Rudy dominated the players from all those countries. China was a badminton giant but their top players, Hou Chia Chiang and Tang Xin Fu, were on the decline due to old age when Rudy emerged as the dominant force in world badminton. So Rudy Hartono truly was the dominant force in the world during that particular era. Sure, Rudy's achievements would have been more solid had China joined the IBF but we should not take anything away from Rudy's achievements as his inclusion to Time magazine 60 years of Asian Heroes. Even way past his prime, at 31, Rudy manage to win the 1980 World Championships by beating Liem Swie King who was in his prime in straight games under 10. After all the experts have good reasons to call Rudy "the maestro" and is considered a "badminton phenomenon".
     
    #40 sabathiel, Feb 21, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2007

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