Another Double Rotation Question

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by kaki!, Jul 14, 2016.

  1. kaki!

    kaki! Regular Member

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    My doubles partner and I were having a misunderstanding in the following situation:

    We were in attack formation. I was the back player at our back hand corner, and he was the front player biased toward the left side. Both of us are right handed.
    So I hit a clear from our back hand corner to the opponents' back hand corner, and I moved forward, expecting my partner to retreat and defend the right side. But both times (yes, it happened twice) he retreated and collided with me on the left, expecting me to move across the court from left to right.

    Does it make sense?
    No, I don't think it makes any sense.

    Before I hit a clear, he should have known the birdie was on our left side, and I had to be on the left to reply. So when we switched from attack to defense, it's most efficient for him to cover the right.

    I've learned somewhere that the back player is supposed to read the front player's retreating direction, and move to cover the other side, because the front player can't see the back player, and therefore the front player gets to choose which side to cover.
    But I don't think it applies to our situation.

    What do you guys think?
     
  2. rudy.t

    rudy.t Regular Member

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    backhand-cross-clear from backhand corner ?

    Your partner must follow the shuttle anyway, which would mean moving to the right, so I think there´s no doubt .....


    In general it would be a different situation when the front court player hits the shuttle in an attacking position,
    then the rear court player has to align with the position the front court player chooses ....
    (omg, really complicated to describe .... ;-) )
     
  3. cn1766

    cn1766 Regular Member

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    When I play doubles, I let the front player choose the side and then cover the other.
     
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  4. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Yes, he's wrong to move that way, yes you're wrong to run into him since you can see what he's doing, yes you're wrong to play that shot (99% certain)
     
    #4 amleto, Jul 14, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
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  5. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Poor choice of shot by you causing a lot of confusion.
     
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  6. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I don't necessarily think you're wrong playing X-court clear. If your opponent likes to lurk around front court area, betting you won't use the rear court, a smash or precisely a X-court attacking clear may be used to catch them by surprise.

    But if you're attacking based on this, you wouldn't/shouldn't be retreating. Beside that, I agree with Amleto's comments.
     
  7. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    agree with amleto and Cheung, with you doing more wrongs(2 vs 1) and doing the wrong thing first (Cross court clear from corner).
    these things must be agreed beforehand as it's an unusual situation.
     
  8. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Wow - interesting opinions.

    Firstly, I disagree 100% with people who say the cross court clear is the wrong option. You guys really haven't managed to determine whether it was a good option or not. It MAY have been a good option or a bad option. It depends on so many different things. Just one example is if the player who clears the shot has a much weaker defence - then it makes sense for them to clear cross court, so that their partner can cover the straight defence and thus protect the weaker player. Or the opponents did something tactically weird like the cross court defender came rushing forwards expecting a straight/middle drop shot so you punish him with a clear.

    Anyway. Without ranting too much, cross court clears are not bad shots, at any level, UNLESS they put you in a losing position within the rally. Note: that is the definition of ALL bad shots. You could play a tactically sound shot badly and end up losing the rally - it doesn't mean it was a good choice of shot if you can't hit it properly!

    To answer the question from the OP:
    I believe your partner was wrong in his positioning (unless he has the weaker defence - in which case maybe he was right to do so!). He should always move to the right. Here are the options:
    Defensive clear:
    Means you are clearly in trouble. Your partner is being exceptionally unfair to you to expect you, when already in trouble, to then run the full width of the court to retrieve the next shot.

    Attacking clear:
    Means you are on the attack. Its a good time for your partner to move across and perform "sides attacking"... OR you could choose to remain front and back. Which means your partner should move across but remain at the front and you move across but remain at the back.
    However, it sounds like it was a defensive clear.

    Of course, in theory, the front player can choose where to go, and the back player can see this, and so the back player can move to accommodate this. There is no way you can bump into each other unless the front player is really slow in picking a side which can cause confusion. But the back player should see the front player make a move, and then move to the other side.

    However, in this case, the front player is being inconsiderate to the back player who is in trouble.

    As you can see - there are lots of circumstances and reasons why my advice could change in given situations. But in your situation, I believe the front player was wrong.

    Hope that made sense!
     
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  9. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    Your partner should sense the massive hole to the right side and naturally move there. If not perhaps he's just not used to doubles game?
     
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  10. kaki!

    kaki! Regular Member

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    To clarify my situation, I played the cross court clear because the opponents were not evenly side by side.

    Also, what I didn't mention was, previously when we were attacking and when I played drop shots from the back (doesn't matter sides or middle), my partner had a tendency to move back, leaving me wonder why he expected me to cover a net reply.
    (Side note: he's not the only one who did the move-back-when-I-drop thing. Quite a few of older players I partnered with did that too. They seemed to be anticipating a front-back rotation and trying to cover a lift to another corner. One even asked me not to play cross court drop because "I can't move to the other back corner to cover you." Well, I can cover myself very well in the back, from side to side, thank you very much.)

    So, IIRC, at that time I wanted to clear because I didn't want to play another drop shot, and I wasn't at the best position to smash. I could have done a straight clear, but I thought I spotted a hole in the opponents' back hand corner.

    Because I was the one that played the clear, I could react first, and started moving up to claim the left side right after my stroke. My partner saw the clear split seconds later, and ran into me. This is likely a communication and coordination issue.
     
    #10 kaki!, Jul 15, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2016
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    @MSeeley

    I don't assume the aforementioned cross court clear to be high and back enough.
     
  12. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    Regardless of it being a straight or cross clear, shouldn't your partner be moving to the right? And if he moves back during drops, he should be moving back to the right so there's really no circumstance where he should be moving to the left.

    Although, if he's one of those older players who usually are not mobile then yeah you should be the one going to the right.
     
  13. shooting stroke

    shooting stroke Regular Member

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    Hi there,

    Players dont realize playing as a back court players carries a huge role in coordinating the best possible choice of hit and pattern of movements while playing. Especially when you are playing in an offensive mode, other then taking the vital role to strategically decide what best option of offensive hit to execute while covering the back court, that choice of hit also should at the same time able to facilitate the front court player in his reaction if there is any opportunity to go for a winning hit if he choose to do so.

    Regardless of what choice of hit that you decided to execute, it is important to understand the fact that by being positioned at the back court gives you a much greater eye view about the position and movements of your front court partner in relation to your backcourt movements and most importantly a better eye view about both of you and your partner court position in relation to your opponents position prior executing your hit. With such vsion coverage and information, theoritically it is wiser for the backcourt player to initiate the appropriate movements to accomodate himself strategically in relation to his front court partner in which part of the court he should urgently cover.

    Despite that your earlier choice of hit does create some disadvantage in relation to your next respond, if you are able to quickly position yourself appropriately then it is likely you will also have the chance to quickly close the window of opportunity for your opponents to do a winning hit.

    SS
     
  14. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

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    You and your partner realy should communicate more and train your movements. I also have this kind of problem when the front player is rarely active and expects the back player to do all the work, but some how chases all the shots around and getting in the way. That moving back from the front court is also something I don't understand in most of the situations.

    1. older players tend to do this as they don't have the speed and agility.
    2. They see the drop as a sign of the back player is tired and want to rotate
    3. they usually play as a "statue" with a vey much better player that plays all the shots so they shouldn't be near the shuttle to play a shot

    For your XClear, see where your partner does first then you move. I think if it really was advantageous, you could've kept a front back where your partner moves to the right and you move more to the middle. but if it's a defensive clear, then see where your partner goes first or agree beforehand where you two should go.

    Just because you clear and see it first, it doesn't mean you take the position first. you could also say something like side, open or "buka"(that's indonesian way) when you do a defensive clear because the front player will always be late to notice
     
    #14 opikbidin, Jul 16, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2016
  15. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I am afraid that in this situation it is fairly obviously your fault then. As the back player, you MUST let the front player move first. If they choose the "wrong" side, you must cover for them.

    The situation you describe, I would agree with what your partners are doing! The reason I agree is because, as you say, the clear was not expected AND they feel they have seen it late and potentially they are older and don't move so well. In this instance, they are hardly in a good position to defend, so it makes sense for them to assume the position as cross court defender so that they are protected from the smash. As such you should move across to the right, ESPECIALLY seeing as you have played it as an aggressive shot and can set off early to cover that side (or get only half way and cover the side you are on!!!!)

    However, there are a few other things that concern me in your post:

    1. if someone hits a cross court drop shot from the back, then the rotation you describe where the front player comes back is VERY common and to be expected. At a higher standard of play, the front player HAS to rotate out to cover the straight lift, and thus the player who played the cross court drop has to come forwards. It's not about YOU at the back, its about the sequence completely leaving the court open, and you very unlikely to be able to attack in such a way that can actually help your partner to win the shot.
    2. You do not seem to realise that hitting cross court drops is tactically a terrible shot unless its an outright winner (or becomes one in the next shot). It completely cuts your net partner out of the game (unless they rotate backwards!). It sounds to me like you are not really playing to set up your partner for a kill... cross court drop shots and cross court clears are not shots that help your partner get into the game. And if that is not what you are trying to do then you need to question: why are you playing doubles? Of course it may be your partner is very weak and incapable of helping, but in this situation you should be covering the straight defence at all times anyway!
    3. why didn't you play a straight drop shot?! At least that allows your partner to attack too!
    4. why didn't you play a straight half smash?! The half smash is the PERFECT shot! Its great for every scenario where a smash is too risky, and a drop shot is too slow (which is almost all the time in doubles!).

    So, now that you have given me some more facts - I am inclined to side with your partner! Your shot choice and mentality may be causing problems!
     
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  16. kaki!

    kaki! Regular Member

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    I don't think I said cross court drops. He moved back even when I straight dropped.
    Anyway, this is new to me that cross court drops are bad choice. I've always thought that people don't usually expect a cross court drop, so chances are high that I can create opportunities that way. Sometimes I got a point; sometimes not an outright winner or close to one, but I always like to try different things to try to create holes in the opponents' formation.
    I guess I'll think about it more in future games to see different classes of people respond to that.

    This is what I need to think about too.
     
  17. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Good luck to you! Ask if you have any further questions.

    Here are some tips for helping your partner into the game:
    • Smash always towards the straight defender - your partner is expecting this and it helps them to cover the court. The cross court defender is in a better position to counter attack.
    • Smashing towards the inside (towards the centre line) of the straight defender will often make it difficult for them to get the shuttle away from your partner at the net.
    • Drop shots do not help bring your partner into the game, but do work as a good variation (if played fast) that will allow your smash to be more effective. A more effective smash will help your partner.
    • Cross court shots expose large areas of your own court, making your partner worry about the gaps and hence not focus on attacking.
    • Half smashes are just as good as smashes when it comes to setting up your partner. If you don't want to smash, then use half smashes and fast drops to keep the rally going.
    • Flat smashes can be more effective for setting up your partner than steep smashes! Flat smashes are difficult to lift - making it more likely the shot will be flat and your partner can attack it. Steep smashes are easier to lift, and your partner may not be able to kill the shuttle if it goes over their head.
    Some people may think that cross court shots are good for the sake of variety - it is far better to be "predictable" and continually set up your partner, than to confuse both your opponent and your partner. Note: as you get better at the game and people defences get better, then it is more difficult to attack using just straight shots. At this level, deception is required to help you get through with your attack, along with variety which may include the occasional cross court shot. However, at this level, your partner is going to be much more fit and athletic and able to move with greater speed to cover the court appropriately.

    Good luck!
     
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  18. M3Series

    M3Series Regular Member

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    From your backhand hand to opponent's backhand ? Are you playing singles?

    That's killing your partner dude ! It's the worst shot ever....

    If I were your partner, I would ask you at that time, "are you trying to kill me ?"
     
  19. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Whether the shot was a good one or not isn't the question, for instance, if you know your opponents are out of position and they have a weak backhand then maybe it's an ok shot, not one to be counted on as it's low percentage but I'm not in a position to say yes or no to the shot selection.

    For the rotation, I'll typically let the person at the front decide how he wants to rotate depending on his weaknesses and strengths. If he has a weak smash return then I've found they will typically move back to the cross court as any smash will take longer to get there and give him more time to respond. The more aggressive play would be to move to the straight side from the shuttle but it gives less time to respond and it's always harder to return a smash when you're moving backwards as opposed to when you're moving forward.

    In the end, if it's not a regular playing partner, as the person at the back, you should always be ready to respond to how the person at the front moves.
     
  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I really hate it when my partner at the back does a cross court drop shot.

    About 6months ago, I formed a new partnership for one specific competition. When we started practicing together, he very frequently played a overhead cross court drop shot from his backhand side on the left side of the court (he is right handed as am I). Because I am covering the left zone area of the T, he has totally exposed my right hand side. I do understand he might try one (but definitely not two) in a game, and not early in the game.

    At the level I am playing, it's rare to get an advantage from this shot especially when the trade off is when the net player is out of position. It really has to be a perfect shot. We ended up deciding that if he was going to play it, he can only play it once and very near to the last point of the game when the opponents had never seen the shot before. I.e. You still have a surprise factor. Once you play it twice, the opponents learn your behaviour. Just count how many times you have played this shot and won a rally. The better the players you play, the fewer rallies you win with this shot. Simple application of statistics.

    Why did my partner play this shot so often? It's because he plays games on club nights where he like to experiment. There is no long lasting damage if you play risky shots and lose. However, when playing in a competition, he had to play with me as a partner and change his mindset away from his normal sessions behaviour. This was quite an interesting partnership because this partner has some difficulty pla
     

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