Yes, but rotating your body leads up to your racquet. The more joints involved in this "crack-the-whip," motion, the more power you get. I don't remember who it is copyrighted by, but I do remember when she gave us a handout, she specifically pointed out that it was not to be copied or reproduced in any form, etc. Phil
Phil, hey, sorry. I missed the names on your very first post. You said one of the two was a kinetics researcher. Do you remember which one? If you can find ou the name of te lady, it would be much easier. Copyright?? If they are truly researchers, the data should have been published in a scientific journal. They can copyright their article (the handout). You've reproduced the findings by writing them down in BF The idea can be reproduced if the specific idea is attributed to the original authors of the research properly. By the way, I'm not up on sports science or biomechanics but I think the theories should also be put to some form of statistical test since an overhead technique would vary from player to player (international players that is). Other mere mortals such as BF'ers may not have techniques standing up to the rigours of international tournament play and show more variation.
I think this is an interesting thread, but it is hard for me to understand all the stuff about pronation and flexion as English is not my natural language. Can someone please explain to me what is meant by these terms in relation to playing badminton? Ruud
Actually by international convention if you've written something original down (even scribbled), it is by definition copyrighted. Of course copyright does not protect the ideas, it protects the way they are expressed, so as long as Phil doesn't copy what they wrote/said he's not in trouble. Actually I found Ugly_footwurk's comment about never using pan handle grip interesting, I've been taught by a few top ranked former players (as in best in their categories in the world) to use pan handle grip under certain circumstances, come to think about it, even an assistant coach of the Danish team (geez I've had some good coaches, I wonder why I suck so much ;P)
your body can only rotate a certain amount, and it's best that the entire amount is used on the upper body rather than spreadout throughout upper and lower portions where the net effect on the racquet would be smaller. One could copyright expressions but not copyright ideas. You could PATENT ideas but she didn't mention any patents and I doubt it is patented. Thus a summary would be perfectly legal. Also, critiquing articles is considered fair use so a word-for-word reproduction of the areas we are analysing would also be legal.
pronation is the twisting of the forearm clockwise if you were looking down from above. Flexion is just a fancy word for "bend." We really should just say bend... no need to show off here guys.
Did not say NEVER. As mentioned, talking about standard power strokes. Not exceptions. Obviously panning side-intercepts, net kills etc. are acceptable, but we're not discussing that. We are discussing the standard BH/FH clear, smash. And since you do say you've been coached by top players, then I would think that you would agree pronation/supination gives the more power then just simple flexion. (Or should i say... wrist bend...)
i know a guy who also attended that seminar. He was giving me the same talk as what were discussed here. He gave me his and her names but i didnt jot them down. Cheung, all i remembered her first name was Edith. I could get her last name if u want.
Here is some further food for tought for this excellent thread: 1\ The lack of effectiveness of "wrist snap" may allude to the fact that the impulse from brain to muscles is much slower than the smash itself, thus making it impossible to fire wrist muscles at the right time. 2\ "Power" in the research results mentioned may refer to the amount of "horse-power" generated by wrist muscles. This line of reasoning has been used in other rotational hitting sports to prove that arm and/or wrist muscle "power" alone cannot account for the velocity achieved at impact (not enough muscle mass to account for the "horse-power" needed to generate that velocity), thus leading to the conclusion that larger muscle mass (legs, trunk, torso) must also contribute. 3\ A related view holds that what little power our smaller muscles contribute will likely result in less velocity because, by tensing our muscles and tendons, we are interfering with the transfer of momentum from arm to racket that would occur if our wrist simply acted as a powerless hinge (i.e. loose wrist). The transfer of momentum also explains why a straight arm and wrist (single lever) produces less velocity than a bent arm and wrist (three levers), why chain links (n levers) produce more velocity than a stick (single lever), why the crack of a whip is actually the sound of its tip breaking the sound barrier (view the whip as a series of minuscule levers), etc. Now, as to which combination of lever angles (shoulder, elbow, wrist) will produce the optimal velocity, I suggest you download the following program and try various angle combinations. You will be surprised at the results... http://www.telusplanet.net/public/maxs/pgswing.htm Note: even though the program is not badminton-related, many of the same physics principles will apply and it's a very good illustrative example... Cheers, Mike
Did he attend the camp itself, or the presentation? Edith Hayman is NOT one of the researchers. She is the head coach at Brantford and was the camp coordinator who must have invited the researchers to give a presentation to the guest coaches. (many coaches came from as far away as the maritimes to help out at this camp and learn) Phil
Going to use bigredlemon's method and use numbers to refer to paragraphs, it is much easier. 1. Working on that... 2. I think it has been published, but I haven't the inkling what the book might have been called. 3. The lab tests used top Canadian juniors at the time (this was awhile ago), but they also had non-lab but still slow motion footage of internationals from tournaments. (if I remember correctly, one of the tournaments was the All England) Phil
Pronation is the twisting counter-clockwise, not clockwise, unless you mean you are bending your elbow and looking at your forearm with your hand closest to your face. So.... counter-clockwise if you are looking down and your arm is straight. Phil
A quick search using Dave Waddell showed he is a director in this organisation 'International Society of Biomechanics in Sports' Couldn't find his CV though. Pubmed search didn't turn anything up though it may not be the approriate search engine to use.
Pronation I think BRL meant that if you stand with your arm pointing vertically upwards, and then pronated, someone looking down from directly above you would see a clockwise rotation. Pronation comes from a Latin root meaning to lie face down. Supination comes from a Latin root meaning to lie face up. With respect to the arm, face down and face up relate to palm down and palm up. So, Pronation is the act of rotating the arm so that the palm is down. Supination is the act of rotating the arm so that the palm is up. Flexion is the opposite of extension. If you bend your arm at the elbow, that is flexion. When you straighten the arm, that is extension. The biceps do the flexing, and the triceps do the extending. The knee and the elbow are simple joints, they are only suppposed to bend one way. The wrist is more complicated in that it can bend in more ways. Flexion would be the when you bend the wrist such that your fingers move towards your biceps, and extension would be when you bend the wrist such that your fingers move away from your biceps. How does this relate to badminton? hold a badminton racquet in your hand gripping it like you were shaking hands with it. Make a straight line with your arm and racquet, with the face vertical Now do the pronation and supination movements, and you'll find you are twisting the racquet like opening a lock with a key. Not much use to badminton. Now do the wrist flexion and extension. See the difference. Now hold the racquet like holding a hammer in a fist. With the arm straight out, have the racquet pointing up, with the face such that you can't see the strings. Do the wrist flexion and extension, and all you do is wiggle the racquet.Now do the pronation and supination. See the difference. We don't play badminton with either of these grips though, it is somewhere in between. I hope that's of help to someone.
it the wrists are locked, it won't matter how strong your wrist is. Hence we're able to compare arm-only hits to wrist-only hits.
it is clockwise if the hand is up... i was looking at my hand when i was typing. guess i should have been more clear. Neil said it better than i did so just listen to him.
Here are pictures differentiating flexion, extension, pronation, and supination and showing the muscles involved and exercises to strenghten those muscles: http://www.paddleball.com/paddles/A...to.htm#exercise http://www.paddleball.com/paddles/A...uilder/faqs.htm Cheers, Mike
