About this subject, I thought that PBSI would like to promote more native indonesian players. I'm not against Sigit, he was a good player and he is a legend. But as far as I know, Chandra is and would like better to be paired with Tony. I feel that PBSI teamed Chandra and Sigit (and not Chandra and Tony) because they wanted orbitting Sigit who is native indonesian. Anyway, good luck to Chandra/Tony and Sigit/Frans, I really hope that you can succeed even if you are no more representing PBSI.
Hmmm, my dad told me, not when they enter.. But, when they wanna quit the PBSI, but has not been orbitted yet... My dad's friend's son was there, and when he quitted, he was asked to pay.. Secretly of course.. But, I don't know if its true... I think not only to those chinese-indo plyrs, all of the others too...
I was living in Indonesia at the time Icuk Sugiarto, at the age of 20, beat Liem Swie King in the finals of the 1983 World Championships. There were widespread rumours that Liem Swie King was "pressured" or "forced"(Indonesian/Javanese style, so it was very subtle) by the Indonesian government or PBSI to give Icuk the World Champioship because Icuk was a native Indnesian and no native Indonesian at the time has ever won a major badminton title let alone a World Championship. If you watched the finals between Icuk and Swie King you would see that Liem Swie King gave a hint that he threw away the game by hitting the shuttle out at 17-17 in the third game. It seem that Swie King was making a statement that if the establishment want me to lose to Icuk I will make it obvious at 17 all in the final game. I strongly suspect that Swie King arranged to lose 17-18 in the third game and deliberately hit the shuttle out to let Icuk win. Other than that incident I know no case where an Indonesian Chinese badminton player has been discriminated by PBSI or the government. Indonesia is very proud of their badminton achievements so I doubt the best players who happen to be Chinese in the past were discriminated in favour of the under achieved native players. Indonesia want to make their mark at the world stage by winning badminton trophies so I don't see the point of discriminating against the best players in the country who are mainly Chinese at the time. I can't speak for the situation in the last 20 years because I left Indonesia in 1986. My mother is Indonesian Chinese and my father is English.
do u remember the Hendrawen's case? http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15738&highlight=hendrawan
I just read the the relevant article regarding Hendrawan. I must say the Indonesian Chinese are not discriminated in regard to their badminton skills but socially that is a different case. Corruption is rampant in Indonesia and the predominantly wealthy Chinese are an easy target by the overwhelmingly native Indonesian government officials. The Chinese are expected to pay bribes to expedite governmental paperwork and a higher sum than the average native Indonesians. Hendrawan's painfully long process to get Indonesian citizenship is not unique to the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia. Getting Indonesian citizenship is very difficult whether you are Chinese Indonesian or from other countries even with bribes. Without bribes it is almost certain you won't get citizenship. In the late 70s the national soccer coach of Indonesia, Tony Poganik, who is a Czechlovakian national who has done so much for Indonesian soccer and has lived a long time in Indonesia couldn't get citizenship because it was almost impossible at the time to get Indonesian citizenship even if you have lived there for a long time. I have not been to Indonesia for 18 years but keep in contact with relatives there. The government has tried hard to stamp out racism against the Chinese and adopted inclusive policies such as calling the Chinese with more polite words such as Tionghoa instead of the rude Cina. Chinese new year is now a national holiday. Some ethnic Chinese with Chinese names have been on the Cabinet or Parliament. Hendrawan was even allowed to be the carry the Indonesian flag at the Olympic games because Taufik had to preserve his energy to play the next day after the opening ceremony. From what I know now the antagonism socially has shifted from race to religion. The rise of Islamic fundamentalism in some parts of Indonesia mean the target of violence or hostility shifts from the Chinese to Christians. The problem is that the Chinses Indonesians are predominantly Christians.
A bit off topic-Hmm, good brief exposition on INA history... (rest of posts snipped for brevity)..just want to comment on this.. ..hmm, not necessarily though...As there are also Chinese Indonesians who are Buddhist, Confucianists and even Catholics(to an extent it's not the same as Christian)...However, the Christian religion, itself, is the 2nd popular religion (behind Islam), and its followers consist of many different races & tribes/ethnic groups.. *Btw, sabathiel, you mentioned that you haven't been back to INA for 18 yrs, well, i think you beat me to it. I think you should go back and have a visit. I have already, a few times recently as a matter of fact, and i was really surprised to see all the changes that have happened ever since i left there(also abt 18 yrs)..
Predominantly implies that the majority are Christians. I am aware that there are Chinese who are not Christians. Muslims don't distinguish between the various Christian denominations and are largely ignorant of the doctrinal differences between Protestants and Catholics. It is true that in some parts of Indonesia native Indonesians are Christians (including Catholics) but this reinforces the view that many Muslims antagonises the Christians because in some parts there are sectarian violence between these two religions with most of the victims are the minority and less aggressive Christians. The number of Buddhists Chinese and Confucious Chinese are declining as many of these groups are becoming Christians as well as some Muslims. The antipathy towards Christians by Muslims (mainly fundamentalist Muslims) are due to the fact that Christians are a growing religion and are aggressive in seeking converts in Indonesia. Benny Hinn an American evangelist manage to gather 1.5 million audience in 3 nights when he came to Jakarta last year. Another problem for the hostility towards Christians is the policies of the USA and the West in the middle east in support of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians or Arabs. Muslims in Indonesia have a notion that the West led by the USA are Christian nations. The Chinese are mainly associated with being Christians by the Muslim native Indonesians. I myself am Eurasian with some distinct Chinese features and whilst growing up in Indonesia was often taunted as being a Christian by the Muslim native Indonesians without them personally knowing me of being a Christian.
Off topic... ok and sorry folks...but just 1 more comment.. hmm, i don't have the datas/numbers on this, but i think that's the "belief"(by the native non-Christian INAs)..In reality, that's *part of the reason* for the stereotyping/"labeling"...Like you said in your earlier post, they are targeting/"blaming" religion but IMO they are "tying" the Chinese-INAs as "Christians".. ..what you've expounded on is mostly true, esp. abt the influence of the Christian religion in INA..But i'm sure you're aware of the church bombings/killings of Christians in Poso/Manado(Sulawesi/Celebes island). Those areas, i believe, are mostly, if not all, inhabited by non-Chinese Indonesians. Yet, they are targeted. I've also known a few Chinese Indonesians who became Muslims themselves(because of social & political pressures).. ..hmm, i would love to concur with you on this but as far as i know & heard, the Chinese Indonesian, also known as Tionghoa people, are not all related to Christians. And in response to your particular case, since you have a mixture of western/chinese features, i think i can see why they've "labeled" yourself as a Christian, even if they didn't know your background/religion(of course going back to the Western influence and your insights in the paragraph above). I myself would feel the same. But i personally can't deem so in all areas where Chinese INAs reside. Anyways, enough of me talking and sorry all for going very off-topic..
Just to clarify on the numbers. According to the 2000 census (Wikipedia) Muslims make up 86% of the population of Indonesia. 11% are Christians (Protestants make up 2/3). 2% are Hindus. 1% are Buddhists. Confucianism are less than 1%. The ethnic Chinese are 3% of the population. There are no numbers of how many percent of the Chinese are Christians but based on my experience of knowing the Chinese Indonesians in Indonesia and overseas I am guessing the there are more Chinese Indonesians who are Christians than Buddhists or Confucianist. There are a lot of churches in Jakarta where its congregations are overwhelmingly Chinese. I also know many Chinese who were Buddhists and Confucianists who became Christians but I have never encounter the case where a Chinese Christian became Buddhists or Confucianists. I know some of my relatives who became Muslims because they married Muslims but when they divorced or when the spouse died became Christians. I didn't intend to state that most Christians are Chinese in Indonesia just that most Chinese are Christians based on experience. I know this is off-topic but I thought I better share my thoughts as how to I come to the conclusion that most Chinese Indonesians are Christians.
...what i've highlighted in bold, i think that sounds reasonable enough.. But uhm, after gathering some infos from a couple of acquaintances in INA, the percentage of ethnic Chinese Indonesians is roughly 5%, give and take, and most likely no more than 10% of the entire population. And out of the whole ethnic Chinese-INAs population, there are only approx. 3 to 5% who can call themselves "Christians" (not Catholics, as it is somewhat a separate denomination and some don't even acknowledge them as in the same religion, esp. in INA. And some of those people only go to church on special occasions)...So, imagine, it's not much... Thus the majority of the Chinese INAs are still Buddhists or Confucianists. And maybe some are even atheists... Btw, i've seen/read those numbers before in Wikipedia..Also remember, there are also Chinese INAs in other parts of the country (ie. Sumatra(Medan), Sulawesi/Celebes, Kalimantan(East & West who are predominantly pure Chinese and they can hardly speak proper Indonesians), and of course other cities in Java) not just in Jakarta..
You forget that I consider Catholics as Christians and so do most Christians in the world. The figures of 3% Chinese Indonesians are from the official 2000 census quoted in Wikipedia. I don't know where your acquantainces got their figures from but I think we can trust the census better. 10% is certainly way too high. 3% is about right. The population of Indonesia is around 220 million I doubt there is 22 million Chinese there. Even if you only go to church on special occasions you are considered a Christian by people especiall Muslims who mostly go to the mosque on special occasions (some even consider themselves as Muslims and don't practice their religion at all let alone go to the mosque). Atheism is illegal in Indonesia as the national ideology, the Pancasila, requires people to at least believe in One God. That is why the communist party is illegal in Indonesia as communists are atheists. I think all Chinese Indonesians speak Indonesian because they have to go to schools that speak Indonesian unlike in Malaysia where there are schools that teach in Chinese. Only some very old Chinese Indonesians don't speak proper Indonesian and they are a dying breed. If you don't speak proper Indonesian you wouldn't have a life in Indonesia as everything is done in Indonesian socially and formally.
Off topic... ..hmm, exactly, that's what i've written in my previous post, roughly 5%, give or take, are Chinese INAs population; I never said it was around 10%..But then i gave the approx. percentage of those ethnic Chinese INAs, which is 3-5%, who are "Christians". Yes, i've gotten them from my acquaintances in Ina, but i can trust them because they live there & know(the numbers might not be exactly accurate and it might change now but it's close enough).. ..true, but i'm pretty sure there are atheists abound in Ina.. ..true, but reality is those people still exist.. I want to comment more, but i think it's enough as this is veering way off topic.. I guess to give this "off-topic" discussion a better perspective, perhaps other BC members, who are familiar with this & maybe currently living in INA, can add a few more insights as i don't want this to be a 2-way discussions..sorry all
For me, in indonesian Badminton (PBSI), the problem or discrimination or whatever word you use, is always the case of chinese or native, there is no relationship with religion. In more general context, I would say in Indonesia itself as a country and community, there are now 2 different problems and I don't think that it's proper to mix them. The 1st is chinese / native (chinese people control the indonesian economy), and the 2nd is about religion (about "extreme" moslem who wants to force their law and rules, for exemple desctruction of bars and pubs, demonstration in Playboy Indonesia's office, etc).
