Spot on! We (dad and I) agree with most of your point. He has played them in his day and I have trained with ex-top players, and we have always said that at the top level not much has changed and that the top players of today would have a hard time beating the top players of even 40 years ago if it would be for one match. Thanks!
Comments on Vivers perspective Excellent post again. I agree on almost every part, though not all. Comparison similarity top level 'then and now', and your view on their harsh training: agree. I do not completely agree with your view on early burnt out players. In the case of Dong Jiong I agree that he missed the extra skills to become a legend (at that level I would not use the word fundamentals easily). Xia however has good skills, but lacks a certain mental edge (I don't know if you also count this with your fundamentals). Sun had skills and mental edge, but was not the best physical specimen for the Chinese type of training. I believe that with a different type of training he woulod have lasted longer. By the way, my case for burn out because of insufficient rest periods and too much training stress (and not the lack of fundamentals) is backed by countless examples. We have some contacts in China and the percentage of dropouts because of injury is huge, a tenfold of that in Indonesia and at least a fiftyfold of what we hear is the case in Denmark. Most other country using their methods would run out of players. For the benefit of a single individual player I believe the physical training in china to be less efficient that for example Denmark. For the singling out the best physical specimens (at the cost of many others) it has proven to be effective. The Zhao case is backed by Dr. Oon Chong Jin (arguably the world number one or two in 1959) who treated him while in Singapore. Then I would like to add something to your comments about fame and prosperity in sports. Some players we coach have visited China for training, so we maintain contacts there. Apart from huge competition, the prospects for a badminton player are quite good, better than for subtop players in any other country (as a profession that is). Even the regional team players are - from the age of 15 - true professionals, with incomes that a lot of farmers would like to have. So in numbers, China still has the edge, as the 'negative factors' you describe are still more typical for most western countries than for China. I also think that Tang and Hou were ahead of their time and are among the best. Zhao (albeit inconsistent) is still my favorite and Yang Yang (with his specific qualities) comes close. Hartono was a great player as well, doing a lot for the game, but because of lack of non-Indonesian rivals he did not need the extra effort to improve his physical abilities. Players who would have been serious competition (apart from China) came from Indonesia, and were mostly forbidden by the coaching staff to seriously challenge Hartono (to maintain the invincible-Hartono-effect for the TC). Because of these regrettable politics the name of Christian Hadinata is never mentioned among the best singles players. However, in 1973 he was the All-England finalist in men's singles and told to lose by the coaching staff. Many say that in 1973 and 1974 he was better than Hartono in singles, but Indonesia still counted on the Hartono-effect in singles and needed Christian for 100% wins in doubles. So apart from being the best men's doubles and mixed doubles of his time, his singles qualities are too easily overlooked. Another Indonesian of whom it is said that his talent at least equals that of Hartono was Iie Sumirat. He once beat all the Chinese players on a tour (including Hou & Tang). Mostly on talent he reached the world top 4, and at 40 was still strong enough to spar with the TC team. Sumirat was gifted, fast, with deceptive flicks, but did not reach a consistent level, because he was not easy to work with, at times rebellious and quite lazy. With these characteristics in mind it is interesting to mention his best young pupil: Taufik Hidayat. ;-)
Visit to Vancouver? That sounds like a great idea! My hotmail address is koboduck@hotmail.com Maybe we can stay in touch and meet up somewhere in the future, watch and discuss old badminton dvd's and the quality of Canadian beer of course.
If Cheung makes it in June 2005, there's gonna be a huge BF gathering for sure. Come over for a round-table discussion! I'll provide the complete transcripts for all BF'ers after. Get to meet Viver, as well, then we'll be torn between sitting on the side-lines listening to great thoughts, or playing baddy games. -dave
Koboduck, Wow, really a very educative post. I am learning more things here which is great. Players burn-out About Xia, though a great player - great determination but feel that his footwork miss something. Powerful but not 'agile' (?) quick but not relaxed - had a feeling that he is priveleging strength over technique. Hard to explain and also have a feeling that he does not change the pattern whether (I mean moving towards the shuttle) in attacking or defending situations. When you don't dominate the all-around skills, it will be harder to deal with young and faster players. Also compare Ye Zhaoying and Gong Zhichao. Yeh is in my opinion technically much better overall player - can't really find her weakness other than the psychological aspect, and would be able to hold her place in the team. Gong on the other hand relied more on retrieving and would be more difficult for her to keep working that hard in the long run. Training like that, injuries are more likely to occur, but not training enough there is fear of losing the place to another player. Please feel free to correct my opinions as I would also like to learn. Developing players In China, one of the problems they are facing now is Pedagogy - they have good coaches, very knowledgeable in badminton but probably not the best when dealing with developing players. The idea of always having a replacement is not that easy now. Nowadays not every parent wish their kids to be in a national sports team. Today's kids especially the ones in the cities are much pampered and probably would not have the same determination as say a kid from the countryside to overcome the hardships of training. The cities still have the majority of the population but talent is getting scarcer and harder to find. I think China needs to make a greater effort to keep its best players and potentially coaches. After Wong Wenjiao, Chen Fushou and Hou Jiachang's retirement China badminton went down and only Tang Xianfu return brought it back again to its feet. Now Tang Xianfu also retired and you see the immediate consequence in mens doubles - well might be coincidence?? Also coincidence that after Tang left Indonesia, their level also went down. As for prosperity, I believe there are more opportunities in China for a person to choose from. For many sports used to be the only way out (like football in some countries, you certainly heard about Cruyff, Zidane, etc stories) but not anymore. Heard that some IT specialists earn around 30,000 yearly which not bad in Chinese standards. Not sure how much a professional player earns nowadays but my coach said he used to earn around 100/month. Players of the past I love to watch Tang Xianfu play. Can't see nowadays any player performing his exquisite footwork. Zhao Jianhua is another player that impresses and makes me want to watch more. About Hadinata, also heard my coach comment that he was an excellent singles player - not weaker than in doubles. Whether he is better than Hartono I don't know as I never seen Hadinata play. And you're right that Indonesia wanted to keep Hartono's invincible image - to the point of preventing Hartono to play either Tang or Hou. Tang Xianfu spoke highly of Sumirat and Wahudi (spelling?). I believe he sees them among the best players of their time. Tang did indeed lose to Sumirat in a tournament in Indonesia (1976??) and can't say at that time he was in his prime. Taking into consideration the training they (Tang and Hou) had in the 60's and 70's is not hard to guess that they may not be in the greatest of shape after 35. Your post is really great. Learn a lot there and really hope you will continue to post. Very educative and thank you. PS. As wood_22_chuck suggested, please do let us know should you come to visit us in Vancouver. We'll be glad to listen about your wonderful experiences.
You mean Johan Wahyudi ? Double player who partnered with Tjun Tjun ? I think (I could wrong) it was not in Indonesia, but in Bangkok, in Asia Badminton Invitation. When Iie Sumirat beat Hou in semi final and Tang in final.
Correct, Johan Wahyudi and Tjun Tjun also. Again, you may be right. As far as I know, Tang Xian Fu lost 2 matches to non China national team players: 1 to Ilie Sumirat and another one to Liem Swie King.
Hi Koboduck, Great analysis and info. Would you be able to post the name your Dad went by in his Thomas Cup days? I'm wondering if my coach Dominic Soong formerly on Malaysia's national team would recongnize your Dad's name. They're from different eras though Your Dad 50's and Dominic more late 60's to 70's.
Hi, Thanks for your interest in and kind words about my posts. My father's name is Leo Kountul. I doubt your coach will recognize his name though. Although I found some records about my dad during my last visit to Indonesia, he will not be well-known. This due to the fact that he was a member of the Thomas Cup training squad, but never got to play in the final tournament. His national tournaments were supported, but in those days badminton was still quite small in Indonesia as sponsorship and the public eye went. So very rarely players were sent to international tournaments. Even top players mostly paid for their trips theirselves, or could play international tournaments because they studied in Europe. Tang Xianfu (then still called Thing Jian Houw, or 'the Thing') was one of the very few and first to be sent by the PBSI; he played the Malaysian Open when he was Indonesia's top junior.
Fang's latest news Fang Kaixiang is now coaching at PB Djarum, a top badminton club based in Kudus, Central Java, Indonesia. He is in charge of developing the young up and coming Juniors of PB Djarum. In December 2006, his latest top pupils: Sylvinna Kurniawan and Andi Nugroho won the Indonesian National Girls' Singles and Boys' Singles. Sylvi also won the 2006 Milo Junior Internationals. Fang's other student, Hayom Rumbaka, went to the Milo finals but lost to Bandar Sigit Pamungkas, another PB Djarum player who is already in the National Team. In the World Junior Championship, Sylvinna Kurniawan lost to Saina Nehwal [of India] in rubber sets ...while another Fang student, Maria Febe, lost to Wang Yihan [of China]. Eventually, Saina Nehwal and Wang Yihan went to the become finalists... Fang is visible in many Indonesian National Circuit tournaments and sometimes appear internationally. For example, the Malaysian Satellite 2006.
Yes those were taken by me in Alor Star late last year before my camera failed me. Thanks to kokcheng who invited and hosted me during my stay there. I had the privilege to be introduced the proud fathers of Tan Boon Heong, Kenn Lim and Gan Taik Chai, all of whom hailed from the badminton crazy state of Kedah, which is now the proud owner of a new badminton stadium. Gan's father is the Hon. Secretary of the Kedah Badminton Association. Understandably, Fang looked rather frail as he must be into his 70's by now. But it was good to see him imparting his knowledge to the young up-and-coming stars of Indonesia.
Loh, thanks for the photos then... I forgot it was you who posted it. I just remembered it was from the Malaysia Satellite thread last year. Fang was born in Surabaya, East Java [I think] and grew up in Indonesia until he left for China. So he can speak Indonesian or Javanese pretty well. That is how he can teach the young PB Djarum kids. Sylvi, herself, for instance, is originally from Surabaya too... We shall see his students in action again this year. I believe, starting in the up and coming Dutch and German Junior International Championship....
Fang was the master behind Malaysian Thomas Cup team 1988 and 1990. Soon Kit, Beng Teong, Beng Kiang and the 3 Sidek brothers benefited a lot from his coaching.
