European were defeated by Asian out of court

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Xu Zhen, Jul 13, 2002.

  1. Xu Zhen

    Xu Zhen Regular Member

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    EBU decided to write on behalf of the Member Associations to IBF to express in clear and strong terms their dissatisfaction and concern about the decision taken on the new scoring system, and to ask for the arguments to justify the new system.
    Moreover, EBU request IBF in future to hold consultations with the Member Associations before such major changes as those to happen to the playing system of the Sudirman Cup are decided upon.
    -----from the EBU Council meeting in Prague
    Why is the EBU so dissatisfied on new scoring system?
    In early 1980s, European brought forward a plan for innovating scoring system on behalf of themselves, that is, using 5x9 instead of 3x15 system. European had carried investigation into many results of tournaments all over the world, and then they held that European players usually kept ahead before 9, but were usually dropped behind after 9 and defeated in the end in a game. So they began to persuade Asian to believe in on difference between 5x9 and 3x15 scoring system because of totaling 45 score in one game for getting Asian's agreement. But Asian said: "since there is no difference between them, we should not reform our current scoring system." Then European innovating was not to be adopted.
    In 1990s, European players were weaker than before comparing with Asian: the most champions always were grasped by Asian at important competitions such as Thomas & Uber Cup, Sudirman Cup, All England Open, World Championships, World Cup (cancelled), World Grand Prix Finals (paused) and Olympic Games. And during the course of this period, European only won a bit of Champions (no more than 30 in 10 years). Pain European eventually put a new plan in new century.
    According to 5x9 scoring system which Asia didn't like, this time, European put in a 5x7 scoring system for reducing time during competition and attracting TV broadcasting. And recent years, the IBF was very short of Finance, many of the most important tournaments had to be delayed, cancelled and paused in succession. Under such a position, it isn't clearly in reason for Asian to reject any of innovating plans including reforming scoring system, so, Asian agree on it without a word in appearance.
    After no more than one year when new scoring system was trialed, The ABC begun to ask the IBF to innovate scoring system again because they thought the new scoring system(5x7) couldn't reduce the time, moreover, this scoring system made the competition unattractive. And then, the IBF decided the argument on scoring system would be done in AGM during of Thomas & Uber Cup in Guangzhou, China. In this bout, Asia won downright.
    Totaling of 4 blueprints for choosing as follows:
    1.5x9 for all events (European dream for a long period of time)-England
    2.5x9 for all events except Women's singles which using 5x7-Denmark
    3.5x7 for all events (current trialing system)
    4.3x15 for all events except Women's singles which using 3x11(old system)
    At last, "Europe worked together to achieve the postponement" and AGM empowered the IBF Council to make the decision then.
    It should be clear that there isn't one vote for one association in AGM, but one vote for one person at Council.
    Very unexpectedly except Asian perhaps, at meeting, only the 5th blueprint advanced by Council besides former 4 ones was adopted by 12:8(European have 8 persons at IBF Council).
    Personally, European stumble is due to their misjudgments about the position. Maybe, European thought Asian didn't agree with each other or perhaps agreed with European plan because Asian didn't take any plan out clearly at AGM until at Council. It was very foolish of European to make AGM empower Council to make the decision. Just at Council the 5th plan which wasn't discussed at AMG at all was adopted by Council. I think if Asian rejected European plan or took a plan clearly at first, the result would have not so easy one. During the Spring and Autumn period of ancient China in Asia, there lived a great militarist named Sun Wu who had written a famous works named "Sun Zi(Zi in ancient China means Mr. in English) strategics" in which he said if you want to defeat your rival, you must make your rival feel tired by let your rival move as much as he likes, you must make your rival feel proud by avoiding fight with your rival face to face, you must adopt steps which your rival can't expect and you must attack when your rival can't prepare for your attacks. So did Asian.
    The victory of Asian is beautiful indeed, but it doesn't make European bow in heart. European must not be a fool and they can learn from Asian what they will do in the future. This year, Asian won, nevertheless, European will win next year. If the same thing is in succession, it must not be helpful to world badminton. Now, badminton is faced with crisis of market that is only foreign aggression which isn't afraid, but the bustup between Asian and European for scoring system is interior aggression which is afraid really. Ancient Chinese ever said: "To conquer the citizen's heart is much better than to conquer the city." It's very important for anyone who wants to gain a victory ultimately to conquer rival not only in his mouth but also in his heart. Today badminton is in difficulty, as a fan, I hope every member association of IBF initiates to develop this game on half of badminton all over the world without selfishness, otherwise, badminton will disappear before our sight.
     
  2. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    despite what the outcome is, there is never a winner in a war. be it a conventional war, a war or words, or a psychological war between nations.

    in this "war" fought between the "Europeans" and the "Asians", it doesn't matter what the outcome might be, badminton in general will be hurt, and we will all become the losers.

    at times like this, we need to examine the root and cause of the problem. and whether the IBF is approaching this in the appropriate manner.

    to us, ie. the badminton fans as a whole, the problem is the popularity of the sport. however, to the IBF associations, they seem to care more about their own winning or losing. just read the first paragraph from the EBU, they found that the European players starts to lose to the Asians after 9 points, thus they want to change the scoring system to 5x9 so THEY could win. to me, that is just plain selfishness. the 3x15 system has been around for many years. only because the European players don't have the mental and physical toughness to last more than 9 points, the whole world should change so they could win? no wonder the Asian rejected their proposal.

    i just had to point that one out, as i was a little bit outraged by the motive of the European in the first place. let's put that one aside now that i have vented that one out.

    so let's examine the real problem. the real problem we are facing is the popularity of the game in general. the problem that other than in the few Asian countries and a few European countries, badminton is next to non-existent in the media. that's the problem that we should be fixing. not whether the Eurpoean wins or the Asian wins. or whether the Asian outvotes the European in the IBF council or otherwise.

    in order to make badminton popular, there are more steps that can be taken aside from the scoring system.

    (tbc...)
     
  3. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Xu Zhen

    Hmm, interesting article that you posted there, Xu Zhen. I'm wondering if there is any link to this somewhere in the web. I went to EBU's and IBF's website, but can't find anything. I am especially interested in this allegation:

    Thanks.
     
  4. Xu Zhen

    Xu Zhen Regular Member

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    It can be found in a Chinese magazine named"Badminton & Tennis" No.1 1990.:)
     
  5. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Xu Zhen

    Seeing that you have the magazine at your disposal, do you mind sharing with us how did the author of the article arrive to that conclusion? (I don't mind the technical information (mathematical/statistical/what-have-you that you might throw in... I am comfortable with it. :) ). Just a small synopsis would be fine.

    Thanks.
     
  6. Xu Zhen

    Xu Zhen Regular Member

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    Many examples for my viewpoint on it, just for one famous example of Morten Frost here (because he was regarded as one of the best players in 1980s by many Europeans and Asians together):

    In 1985 World Championships Men's Singles Finals in Calgary, Canada, as a case in point, Han Jian (CHN) beat Morten Frost (DEN) by 14-18, 15-10 and 15-8. The first match, as you see, Morten Frost won. And the second one, Morten ever had a very good chance to beat his Chinese rival to get his first World Championships as he led ahead by 9:0. But he could only gain 1 point again after 9, while Han Jian took 15 points and won this match and then won this game in the end.

    If under 5x9 scoring system, I think (maybe many Europeans also thought at that time), Morten must have been a World champion utterly.

    By the way, in 1987 Beijing World Championships Men's Singles Finals, Yang Yang (CHN) beat Morten Frost (DEN). The decider was 15-12.
     
  7. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    Right, but to claim that this was the real reason why the EBU wished to introduce the 5x9 system is a bit strong I think... It was a Chinese magazine that wrote this, you say? I am sorry, but it just sounds like bad journalism to me. It is fabricated news.
     
  8. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

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    I don't know how true this is but in the book "In Pursuit of Excellence" by Terry Orlick (an excellent book BTW), Terry wrote about how the Indonesians do simulation training which has since been used by the Chinese/Koreans/Malaysians. In it, he talked about how they would train to come from behind by playing a stronger player against a weaker player but with the score at a handicap (e.g. 3 to 14). This gives the stronger player plenty of opportunity to come from behind and the weaker player opportunity to play against a stronger player and learn. They also do simulations on bad officiating, crowd effects, taller players (by building a higher court on one side).

    I seriously doubt the accuracy of the badminton article mentioned by Xu Zhen (hey, I am Asian too) but also do believe that there are some self-serving politics involved on all sides :D *cynical, ain't I?*
     
  9. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Yes, personally I see the article to lean more toward propaganda (stirring up emotion). That was the reason I was very interested how the author of the article arrive at his conclusion. I am much more interested in the statistical analysis (for example, how many data was collected; which tournament scores were collected; is it men singles only data?; etc.) instead of taking observations that support a claim while ignoring others in which European players had defeated Asian players before. As an example, a play between Morten Forst and Liem Swie King (in 1984?), in which Liem Swie King lost to Morten Frost in straight sets. Liem didn't even score more than 6 points, if my memory serves me right, for both sets!
     
  10. Raphy

    Raphy Regular Member

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    Chinese badminton magazine

    Hello Xu Chen,
    YOu mentionned the Badminton and tennis magazine in your message. Can I know which magazine you are talking about ? Are there more than one badminton magazine in China ? Any URL or mails ?
    Thanks

    Raphael
     
  11. Brett

    Brett Regular Member

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    Let's stop these Asian vs. Western comparisons

    This must be the eighth or tenth post in the last couple of years in which the original author seeks some sort of comparison between Asian badminton players, teams, organizations, etc... and those from the Western nations of North America and Europe. Some of these posts have been blatently racist in nature. Other posts, such as this one, start out pretending to discuss an arguably genuine badminton topic, but eventually make some sort of critical comment about Western badminton and overly enthusiastic praise of Asian badminton. Interestingly, (and correct me if my memory is wrong) the original authors of all of these posts are Asian or Asian in ancestry.

    Enough with these comparisons, please. The motives of all of these authors is primarily, if not solely, to promote some petty little jingoistic "the West sucks" position. Sure it's acceptable to like your own country's players and teams better than those from any other country (although it's equally acceptable to like someone from a country other than your own as well). However, these posters aren't merely saying "I like Hendrawan better than Gade" or "I hope Malyasia takes this year's Thomas Cup." They are trying to argue that one group of people is better than the second and that the second group is inferior to the first.

    This site is about badminton, not racism or extreme nationalism. It attracts hundreds of viewers and participants from dozens of countries around the world and is a better, richer site because of its diversity (I'm sure I'm not the only one to have learned more about life in countries other than my own and to develop friendships with people from other countries). Let's focus on keeping badminton a common bond between us all and not use it as a stepping stone for jingoistic division.
     
  12. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Re: Let's stop these Asian vs. Western comparisons

    Just a small observation, if I may :) : From what I can conclude, these posters used Asian names (as far as I can remember). However, the authors may or may not be Asians. They love to stir up emotions, didn't they?
     
  13. Brett

    Brett Regular Member

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    Re: Re: Let's stop these Asian vs. Western comparisons

    ===================================

    True, but judging by their writing, most of them don't seem to be native English speakers. While I can't easily articulate specific reasons (at least without studying a lot of posts for examples) , they seemed to make the sorts of grammar mistakes that are prevalent with the posters from Asia, whereas the posters from French speaking countries, for instance, seem to make different sorts of English grammar errors.

    Note, I am not criticizing anyone's genuine attempts to communicate in English. The overwhelming majority of non-native English speakers posting on this forum are probably doing better than I ever could in French, even after having taken 6 1/2 years of that language.
     
  14. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Re: Re: Re: Let's stop these Asian vs. Western comparisons

    I see. I also suspected as much. However, here is where our conclusion differ I think: Eventhough I suspected as much, it is still my suspicion. To me it is only a high suspicion and not a prove. I still can't take it to the next level as a conclusion, yet.

    Anyway, we are diverging from the main article/topic. :)
     
  15. Xu Zhen

    Xu Zhen Regular Member

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    When I posted firstly this post - "European were defeated by Asian out of court", some people didn't believe my words. Now look at what BA of E is doing! I'm not a racialist as somebody's thought, I only said the fact, that is, European always want to use 5X9 system. They really care about "women discrimination"? I think anyone has known what they really want to do.

    IMHO, I think it's very difficult for Asian to accept 5X9 scoring system this time as ever, and it's not advisable of European to put up this case with requiring a reform for new scoring system.
     
    #15 Xu Zhen, Feb 3, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2003
  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    it looks like they are going to debate it after the Sudirman Cup.

    i wonder why BAofE would think the rest of the organizations will agree to 5x9. if i were the IBF, i'd just say, "ok, sure, let's go back to all 3x15."
     
  17. Adel

    Adel Regular Member

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    Here we go again...

    Too bad this caught me at a wrong time. Right now, I am feeling too stupid, wretched and tired from midterms to come up with some smart reply. All I wanna say is, when I read the original post, I thought, "Shucks. Not again."

    I am Asian too btw - AND DAMN PROUD OF IT - but I'm getting really tired of that "they're out to get us" mentality.

    If I don't know better - or at least I hope I'm wrong - someone will prob come up with something along the lines of, "Oh the evil West does it TOO" to which I'll reply with a quote from Antoly France, "Even if three million people say a stupid thing, it is STILL a stupid thing."

    Cheers.

    ps. Midterm's a bitch.
     
  18. Fourcas

    Fourcas Regular Member

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    interesting posts i must say. seems as if we can't stop blaming others. accusing people or organisations of mis-behaving. The new 15*3/11*3 system that many countries(including my own) is opposing works quite nice. Matches such as boring ladies doubles were made shorter( no offence ladies- explanation's coming) and mixed as well. I don't think this change was made in disrespect of female players(and male mixed players, too) but more due to it's lack of attraction in the eyes of broadcasters. Face it, the MS, MD and LS is far the most popular on screen. There is a reason why LD is always the last final to be played. Many spectators, both home and in arena go away during LD. Right now you proberly disagree with me because you enjoy all the badminton you can get, i do this as well. I am referring to the common people, who prefer watching players from their respective countries. The new scoring system is tv friendly. BUT, only compared to the former. EBU objected to the new system because it wasn't put on the list of choises initially - of cause because they would have preferred the shorter system; 5*9 or 5*9/5*7. The objection could be seem as a "weapon" when they later filed a complaint of discrimination(i am not referring to EBU now, but the countries mentioned in another thread) against ladies. I respect viewpoints referring to tennis scores and totally agree.
    Female players are less enduring than their male colleages.
    However, the existing system is a step away from tv- success in weatern countries. Badminton is a game not based on time, but points. It is not easy to predict the lenghts of games. Tennis has 1 minutes break every 4-6 minutes. great for tv. it is more difficult to schedule badminton, since it is score based. A solution could be to create a more tennis like structure. That's why i would opt for the 5*9/5*7 system.
    EBU/ABS conflict is not based on the length of the games and EBU looking for more success vs. Asian players. They simply feel that this system could help promote badminton. BTW, i disagree that europeans would be that "blessed" with shorter games. Chinese youngsters, Bao Chunlai and Lin Dan introduced a faster, more power based game. After the trial period of the 5*7 system, Bao Chunlai hasn't made result as the 15*3 system is more endurance based. And the Morten Frost story i don't quite understand, because he was well known as a player who could run forever, while players like Liem Swie King relied on explosion and attack.
    Finally, let me tell you a story of lack of resources in the media.

    A malaysian newspaper did a story on Morten Frost, talking about how denmark was snowfilled all year and morten enjoying skiing. Both things completely incorrect.

    I too, remember the Camilla Martin discussion earlier here in the forum. And now the EBU "quote" , i mean """""quote""""""". Objectivity and subjectivity seems to be mixed on more than one occasion.

    Well, i hope i made some of us think. If I offended anyone i apoligise, i just love badminton and hopes to help all of us lead the game into the future. See you in Bejiing 2008, for the last badminton in olympic games if things doesn't improve.
     
  19. Californian

    Californian Regular Member

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    If the investigation truly demonstrated that Europeans held the lead until 9 points and ended up losing, did anyone bother to investigate further and find out why? Maybe it would be better for them to address the problem of why they can't hold on to leads. Maybe a change in strategy or training is needed. Some athletes in competition--runners, boxers, etc.--deliberately start out slow to conserve energy, take time to check out the opponent, then pick when to charge in their own time (a real good example is short-track speed skating).
     
  20. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    Sad

    It is sad that this argument/conflict still goes on. Clearly great damage was done to ego's many years ago. Unfortunately bitterness is carried on by the few, similarly it is almost impossible to rid the sport of the few people that wish to allege that Badminton Associations from various regions/areas/countries wish to change the rules to their own advantage. I truly believe that every Badminton Association is full of people who love the sport like we do and that they make it their business to improve the standard of badminton the world over. I have seen this conflict at every level, and people can only sit on the fence for so long when they are deeply involved. At my university we have an even mixture of European and Asian players, and there is a balance of talen from both sides. Last year when the club was run by and Asian he would weaken our first team because he believed that being Asian meant that you were more dedicated to badminton. This infuriated me greatly - to the point where my coach had to stop me from stooping to a similar level this season by preventing Asians from being in the first team. Thankfully both of our teams are performing magnificently and we all get on great as a team - this is most important we have a team spirit. The IBF should be like my teams - mixed and they should work as a team to benefit world badminton- instead it seems to be being used as a battle ground for the various associations.

    Let us on the board have a go

    I'm sure we could do a better job

    I hope the IBF are reading this board - they would do well to

    See y'all

    Neil
     

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