If that is so imagine what would happen to Rudy if he used todays equipment.... it's like a gokart driver trying to steer an F1 LOL.... this is very juvenile.............. Like i said..... you can't end this debate. (time warp match) The Borneon BaddyNut
You tend to exaggerate!!!! It is true that Rudi won 8 AEs, competition was not stiff, fewer great players, very traditional. Once again, they are too "traditional" compared with Taufik. I have watched old players play. To me they were OK, no superb at all. Standard!! ABout Guiness Book of records: It is AGAIN only a matter of " Whether you want to put it or not"...I have a neighbor who can do exceptional things but he is not written in the Guiness Book of Record...you tend to get overwhelmed with the past. Again the MOST VALID AND RELIABLE tournaments to judge, who the REAL MASTER in the present day is, are WC and Olympics!!! AE has a historical value, but no longer the final and ultimate tournament. Again, WC and Olympics are the TWO ULTIMATE TOURNAMENTS.....
Well, I disagree with you that Taufik is the best player, "lucky" factor is always there although 10- 20%. I know that every Era have their different player- situation. But You Must know that Taufik is a sensational Player with Technique,make gossip,emotional, as I know cause I begin watch badminton tournament since 1990, well I only know Rudy.H a little bit but I Know that Era not compettitive enough cause players fr China forbiden to play that Time, But after Han Jian, Luan Jin play so See there's more Competitive with more different technique as I see... In My opinion Yang yang is the best player in Badminton so far, in technique, Emotional it's pity that In Olympic 1998 Badminton only an Exhibition match ,if not he could have gold medal. I think we should count lucky although in a small part, as you know in Athena olympic, Maybe Lin dan really nervous cause he still young,and Taufik more mature and the players which he alyways lost already lost with other players so he is little bit "lucky "to win.... I also want to say that Taufik is rather moody, without support from a girl he always nervous.... You know why he lost Sudirman Cup ? cause he didn"t concentrate on that match, he could take a girl he want .... now he made The girl go to police station '''
Hi Indra, You are right. I did checked already... AE is 4* (Next Year will be 5*). Indonesian Open 2005 already 6*. WC and Olympic 7*... Indra: I think... No use to debate with sabathiel. She don't understand the Badminton.....hhhaaaaa and not familiar with difference of traditional badminton and modern badminton. And she always use lucky and lucky.... Taufik got awards from IBF and Indonesian President and would said: Taufik the new greatest. She don't have another argument and use lucky.... hhhaaaa... Taufik has talent to won the 2 tournaments and not lucky...but she still don't understand.... and also try to use the %.... and another reason use 10%...... I'll waiting for you the your another reason...hhhhaaaaa,,Mrs Sabathiel... For me: - WC and Olimpic is most important than AE like indra and saugusli.
I had no chance to see the great "Thing" in action, only when he was China's coach and then only when he just sat down quietly jotting down notes on his trainees' perfomance at tournaments. I have seen the other players in action, mainly in person as well as on the screen. Right from the start, I have given my preference. But my criteria may be different from others. I have seen Rudy Hartono play, how he developed into such a badminton superstar and despite the different eras that these candidates were featured in, I personally find that Rudy is ahead of them in many departments, more so on his behaviour on and off court. Sabathiel has so brilliantly presented his case so patiently, often times having to repeat his arguments so as to bring his detractors back into focuss. As we now know, he is so determined, forceful, well-prepared and effective because he has been trained as a lawyer (wonder whether he specialises in litigation?). But I concede that the other present-day young players like Taufik and Lin Dan still have time to prove themselves. In Rudy Hartono, I have seen him develop from a teen player to where he is now - still badminton active. I have not seen any other great player in his mould just yet. But it will be extremely difficult to beat Rudy's record!
Good idea! I don't mean to meddle around here since the debate is generally between Sabathiel and "the rest". Being a neutral party as i do not care who is the greatest, i just want to point out that Sabathiel has presented many good points while i am sorry to say that "the rest" are just bla bla bla.....
It's unfortunate i didnt have the chance to see rudy H. or tang xianhu in action before, live or tapes so i can't give my side of support. However, i have seen zhaoJH on tapes and to me he was way more dominating in his days than any of today's players, be it lin dan, taufik, peter gade, etc.
Hi Simplelenna, I think you are sabathiel or sabathiel's friend. I don't know.... Sorry about that....hhaaa because same reason with sabathiel. 10%...hhhaa I said: Taufik the best in this era.... I never said at all time... This is the point. Yang Yang and Zhoa Jian Hua the best also in them era... Taufik conflict with PBSI because the salary 3 months never pay yet.. Is it taufik problem..answer no.... Internal PBSI so many politic and Taufik think the future carrer athelete if athelete not use next time....Is it taufik wrong?? No Man... Nah: YOu agree the Rudy Hartono different era with Taufik era.... It is correct... You know the Traditional Badminton and modern Badminton... Good Man... Liem Swee King, Luan Jin, Han Jiang, Lius Ponyoh, Yang Yang, Zhoa Jian Hua also my favoriate. They are the greatest. They are introduce the Modern Badminton. Taufik a little bit lucky won with lin dang... I am not agree with you.... I have the Video Final WC... Taufik play at the time is very good....... and lin dang often did mistake..... Nah It is the badminton... It is the sport.... not lucky mannnnnn... The girls?? girlfriend?? All Tops Player got the girlfriend man..... Lin Dang supported by his girlfriend Xing Fang...mannn.. You reason not true.... Iam sure now... You are sabathiel or sabathiel's friend....hhhhaaaa... my assume only...Sorry again...
Ok...For us: sabathiel are just bla bla.... For example: used "Lucky" Use %..... It is bla bla..... Not reasonable..... I want to stop debate here.....not use.......
Hi Yadi, Those people haven't check the process of the this arguments....hhhaaa.. I agree to stop the debate... and no reply at all....bye..... Happy new year.. Indra: You also.... not use debate with them... you can join to another thead...
Hi jug8man, not use to debate with her... She is bllaaa blaaa... Haaa. Don't border she can't end this debate......Just stop the debate and join to another thread.... place to play the one of the best thread....
I really interested where you buy your lawyer license?? - I put it to you that,You do not know who si The Thing and Zhao Jian Hua or you do not think there are famous player. -I put it to you that, you do not believe that China is strong enough to challenge Indonesia in badminton and you believe that Rudy Hartono would have been better if he were to play a stronger opponent. - I put it to you that, You witness Indonesia beat china in team event during that era and thus chinese was inferior to indonesia. Please let me know where you get your law degree. I wont want any of my friend end up in that uni.
im a little late on this but... my 2 cents No one here has given the definition of what it means to be the "greatest". It seems that everyone's point is valid, but they arent arguing about the same thing. No one here has given what catagorizes the best. What does it mean to be the greatest? Are you guys talking about? IBF ranking? Points? Championships, subdivided into major and smaller ones? Endurance? Speed? Obstacles outside of badminton (I.e health, death of family member, ect) talent? style of playing? mental toughness? conduct on court? (I.e gentlemeness, courtesy) general influence towards badminton in general (I.e development of round the head shot vs backhand) ECT. What are you guys using to define GREATEST.
please can we stop this nonsense argument.. please! Like I say we must embrace every top players in badminton history It is pointless to compared a player from the past and present It doesn't work that way, just face the facts guys.. only the player that created record breaking moment will be remembered in badminton history... So theres no need to argue for your favorite players whosoever it is.... Only time can tell whether they make it or not
Why does Top players desperately want to win a 4 star tournament if it wasn't prestigious? I doubt you have seen Rudy played in the early 60s and early to mid 70s. A thinker doesn't have to display superb badminton he just win his matches. AE is still a measure of badminton success today even Taufik will admit this. If badminton was in the Olympics during Rudy's time he would have won more than 1 title I am sure of that. Alan Budi Kusuma won the Olympics and so did Poul Erik Hoyer Larsen but none of them are considered as in the league of the greatest. Hendrawan won the WC. Joko Supriyanto won the WC. Peter Rasmussen won the WC. None of them are in the league of the greatest players. Winning the Olympics and WC once doesn't make you the greatest. Great at the most but most likely very good not the greatest. To be the greatest you have to win more than 1 title of the WC and the Olympics to show you are consistent and must dominate the sport for at least a decade. Taufik hasn't done this. Look at Mike Tyson they thought he was invincible when he became WC at 20 and knocked everybody out in a few rounds then later everyone start knocking Mike Tyson out because it was premature to call him the greatest at 20. Have you answered my question about can you prove to me that Taufik is a genius wonder kid winning major tournaments before he turned 20? You can't can you? You were lying when you called Taufik a genius wonder kid? Stop lying it is not good in debating. It is called cheating. Again 1 Olympic title and 1 WC is not good enough and it is too late for Taufik to prove that he is a genius wonder kid. He is not that's the truth! What can your neighbour do? Win AE 9 times?
I did give a definition. I said there are many aspects but one I think we can all agree on is the greatest player has to dominate. He has to dominate in his era. Taufik is not that dominant. Taufik still has a long way to go to be greatest ever, if he can even be that.
But the issue is Taufik moving to the time of Rudy playing with primitive equipment not Rudy moving to the future playing with modern equipment.
Thank you for your generous compelements if only everybody is as open minded and intelligent as you I don't have to post lenghty and repetitive posts which annoys me also. I am a criminal lawyer if you are curious. I defend people. In this case I am defending Rudy Hartono from accusations that he is not the greatest because badminton wasn't really competitive back then. On the other hand I am prosecuting Taufik for his supporters claim that he is the greatest of all time which is really absurd. My first case is debateable but the Taufik's case is a knock out for me. However the stubborn crazy persistence of Taufik's supporters is frustrating.
Just a minor correction. China wasn't forbidden to play in IBF,China refused to to join IBF and created their own WBF(World Badminton Federation) consisting of a handful communist countries. China not being a member of IBF does lessen the global competition but not vastly different as proven by Indonesia still being a badminton powerhouse even after China joined IBF in the early 80s. It is China who has a problem with competition by not joining IBF rather than the world has a problem with competition by missing China. Even after China joined IBF countries like Denmark, Indonesia and India manage to produce WC, AE champions or Olympic champions. Rudy's competition was more global than Tan Xin Fu or Hou Chia Chang. So it Rudy has proven himself sufficiently to be the greatest in the world because the IBF is much more global than China's WBF.
