I feel I have a lot to work on, but where should I start first?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by precrime3, Jan 31, 2020.

  1. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Here’s the analysis from a previous post. .

    Have a look at the training routines with you at the forecourt and lunging to the right to hit the shuttle. Very simply, the objective is to land the foot and strike the shuttle at the same time. You frequently land the foot first then strike the shuttle.


    Compare to your backhand where you mostly hit the shuttle practically simultaneously with your right leg landing on the lunge.


    The shot might be better with imperfect technique. Or, the shot might be better because you have improved your technique. You have to analyse yourself or ask questions to your coach who can see you in front of him. Don’t simply train shots and hope they will get better.

    Let’s say you were paying USD 300/h for a lesson. At that price, you would be expecting someone who has played competitively at the very top of the game as the coach.

    What would you do differently to enhance your learning for that lesson compared to a USD 30/h coach who has played at province level? At usd30/h I might be expecting it to be more of a hitting session to get the feel of moving and hitting. Practice consistency with only the occasional reminder on technique.

    At USD300/h, I don’t expect to be spoon fed. I will tell them the coach I have such and such an area that seems to be a weakness. It might be a certain shot at a certain height that I make more mistakes on. I would look to the coach to use part of the lesson to help me diagnose what went wrong and specifically help me correct it with a multi shuttle exercise.

    Or, I would be asking for a specific game situations since doubles tactics is a lot more about pattern training.
     
  2. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I don't know about top international level coaches, but there are province level coaches that can feed well enough , and help diagnose things and help practise scenarios. Likewise a former national or former province champion.

    Any coach that is thoughtful and province level (or at least lots of choaces that are), could potentially be a very good coach to somebody not yet province level, and do all the things you describe as what you'd expect from a top international level coach. All these things eg where you write "I will tell them the coach I have such and such an area that seems to be a weakness. It might be a certain shot at a certain height that I make more mistakes on. I would look to the coach to use part of the lesson to help me diagnose what went wrong and specifically help me correct it with a multi shuttle exercise. Or, I would be asking for a specific game situations since doubles tactics is a lot more about pattern training." To me that's just what one would normally do with a coach.

    As long as it's 1-1. and sometimes 1h isn't enough so eg 2h

    I don't think people would get much individual attention in a coaching camp.
     
  3. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    This is the biggest part I lack. I just don't have any knowledge base here. Nothing on Youtube really. Any help here? I have some help from @SnowWhite in DM's but anything else would be useful
     
  4. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    You play a doubles game you find that your opponent keeps hitting it to a particular area where you are not good. So you ask a coach to review the footage of the thing and work on it.

    And they might say "well your partner did a rubbish shot". Or they might say well you should hit it here.

    What kind of conversations do you logically expect to have with a coach in relation to doubles?!

    A game occurs. And some things happened in the game that I would ask them about. And practise off of it.

    You have improved so maybe you have had some discussions with coaches in 1-1 sessions or is it all group stuff?

    Thing is though in doubles , to train it better it helps to have three people on the court, sometimes four, and a regular partner.. but some things can be done with two people. Just based around what is happening in your games.

    I didn't have many opportunities to have a coaching session with a doubles partner and one that I played with regularly.

    Did you see what I mentioned about your hand being low in racket prep at the back , with screenshots, in post #420?
     
    #424 ralphz, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  5. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    Somehow I missed it! Just read it now. And okay I understand what you mean. For me, I find a lower racket prep more comfy. I also tend to pivot like this (further exaggerating a lower racket prep) due to the way I use rotation for a smash prep. I will experiment with a higher prep, even for a power smash and see how it feels .
     
  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Saw your YouTube game on the 20th November.

    Are they E grade?
     
  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Your current prep is like a messed up low prep with your hand far too low. If you want to try a high prep and not fix your low prep because you don't want to be thorough, then ok. But if when you do a low prep you always do it wrong and you choose to not ever learn low prep properly, then never do low prep at all and only do high prep.

    If you mess up the low prep and can't point your racket arm correctly because of whatever reason you think, then that's an underlying problem that could affect any prep..or swing.
     
    #427 ralphz, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
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  8. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    I believe so
     
  9. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    so do I take ur advice and just emulate someone with low prep at pro level? I will try that.
     
  10. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    thoughts on racket prep. This is Greg from Badminton Insight, around 30's ranking in XD. I feel this is the racket prep most close to mine, thoughts @ralphz ?
    upload_2022-11-22_3-53-7.png
     
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I'm just using reason here, not really saying "my advice is"

    I don't know how you are interpreting me. I'm not telling you to not do a high prep.

    My suggestion is don't do the "prep" that you are currently doing...

    If you try to emulate TTY's prep that's good. If you try to emulate Axelson prep that's good. Those are both good solutions. Neither is wrong.

    You can go with Axelson prep, a high prep if you want, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you HAVE to. Or that it's the only way or something like that.

    You want to enjoy it so do what you want , and what makes sense to you.
     
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  12. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    BadmintonInsight did a good video on racket prep where they show a prep like Axelson.. a high prep.. 90 degree angle at the armpit and 90 degrees between bicep and forearm.

    At the camera angle in that image, there might be an illusion that his elbow isn't as high, because his torso is tilted.and racket knee bent..So his elbow and hand might be higher than you think it is there.

    It might be that his armpit angle is a bit less than 90, which might be easier on the shoulder, and is good, might still be a high prep.. But notice the difference between where his hand is and where your hand is

    If you take into account that he has that tilt going on.. I reckon his racket hand is maybe neck level. Yours certainly isn't!

    His racket arm for whatever reason isn't that upright(he's a pro it's good) but it's more upright than yours, and his elbow is high enough that the combination of how high his elbow is and how upright his arm is, makes for his hand being at maybe neck level, which is higher than yours. So if you want to emulate that with elbow height and arm pointing and thus hand height, you could emulate it better.

    [​IMG]

    By the way, your pic is a demonstratin.. it is better to take from a game, besides that your angle isn't good for showing eight of elbow. Here is an example from a game and a good angle of jenny and greg. Jenny's prep is very high. Greg's is quite high maybe hand is ear level. That's from Ellis / Smith vs Mairs / Moore (XD, R16) - Yonex Dutch Open 2017 on BadmintonEurope (that channel like most has better aviewing ngles than BWF)


    [​IMG]
    a few other things.. and it is a complex subject. I did look at some where the arm isn't that upright but then it goes more upright into a more upright arm racket prep. Also prep with a jump smash can be a bit different. In theory a benefit of a forum is people with an interest in this can give their input. There'd be people here that know more than me on this that can maybe comment here.
     
    #432 ralphz, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
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  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yeah the OP having such a low racket carriage preparation is part of a beginner's bad habit. Similar to lack of pronation, finger power or split step, these must be trained repeatedly to be incorporated to become second nature. And as Cheung puts it, it can't be hours of mindless training but must be proper purposeful training. Quality over quantity. Half hour of focused training is better than 4 hours of just hitting without purpose.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This post from 28 feb 2020 (page 6 of this thread) with the picture may help see how you have progressed with respect to racquet preparation.
     
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  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You might find it more comfortable but unfortunately it’s limited your ceiling for improvement.

    Just a story for example. I sometimes train my kid. I teach her the fine details but many times in the past, she wouldn’t take the details seriously. Then came one time she had to practice against her senior who was already established in the HK junior squad and is preparing to go pro. My kid could get the racquet to the shuttle but could not do what she wanted with the shuttle. She came off court saying she didn’t realise her opponent was so strong and so fast. We had a discussion where I said to my kid her own techniques were too loose so she loses time getting the racquet to the shuttle and the effect multiplies with each subsequent shot until the point is lost. I also said to my kid that she’s been taught (by me) not to have loose techniques in the past. Her reply was very profound: “I didn’t try hard for a better technique because I didn’t need it”. It was true. Amongst her contemporaries, the games weren’t so challenging and she couldn’t see clearly why she should pay more attention to detail.


    To me, it’s a bit of a similar situation here. Precrime is trying to improve but also in a way, staying in his comfort zone thinking his technique is good enough. He’s also playing with a fair number of weaker players. It’s not wrong and a source of social interaction but if Precrime really wants to improve, I think he needs to get raise his standards during his training and also find the B and C players to spar against. It goes back to being if you think like a D grade, you will be a D grade. You need to train to the quality of a B and make yourself think like a B. It requires a far higher level of attention to detail.

    If Precrime has difficulty finding B/C groups, sorry for my bluntness but it’s because his techniques don’t look as if they can hold up to that level. Maybe he’ll have a few good points here and there but over a number of games, the difference in quality will show.

    Even if he went to Malaysia or Indonesia for training, I think it won’t change much. Why not? Because his training mindset is I am comfortable with my technique and it’s just playing more shuttles. It’s getting more consistency with imperfect technique. What would be a better way? It’s focussing on getting small details right in technique with a strong understanding of basic technique to effect better consistency.

    You can’t move on if your foundations are not strong. If your basics are strong, then you can move further.

    From a coach’s point of view, the attitude of the student is also important. If the student is just being a bit of mindless robot , the coach will also coach like that. But if he has a student that is questioning, searching for perfection as best as possible with technique, then the coach will drive forward more.

    As for my daughter, she started paying a lot more attention to the details and made a huge improvement in four months.
     
    #435 Cheung, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2022
  16. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    This is a good picture of what a pro might do and an amateur would copy and then find their game limited when they try to move up to the upper C/B grade.

    Jenny’s prep is more in line of better basic technique. Players who are physically strong tend to cut corners and compensate with strength. If a person has very good basic technique, then can use the strength at exactly the right time, then it’s awesome.
     
    #436 Cheung, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    just revisiting this because @ralphz wants the video.

    Compare carefully the timing of the foot landing and striking the shuttle on forehand and backhand side in the first few minutes.

    Some people might think this is only a small thing. Yes, it’s a small timing difference that has a huge impact.

     
    #437 Cheung, Nov 21, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2022
  18. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    In that video above, when practicing blocks and drops, it's pure laziness to even allow the racket to drop to your knees all the time like that. Maybe if you're a high level player trying to taunt your opponents, but not if you're practicing drills. It's just pure laziness and bad habit that you're practicing into second nature.

    I would challenge you to fix that single simple problem over the next 2 weeks.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
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  19. precrime3

    precrime3 Regular Member

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    Thanks guys for the feedback. It was a lot and I'm trying to not have info overload but here are the two things I am going to try to do:

    - (actively working on) having racket/elbow up in the front. ALready up a lot more then just fewm months back.
    - (not yet, will start) having a higher low prep. I think if I understood correctly, racket hand should be around neck level.
     
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  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Higher. The reference point is the elbow being just under the shoulder level, forearm more vertical, racquet shaft more vertical.
     

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