Pronation In your overhead stroke

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Mason, Dec 29, 2020.

  1. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I met my coach over 40 years ago and since it was not in English, the words "pronation", "supination", etc were never used. The term used was forearm rotation, which in my opinion is more clear. I use the same term when teaching badminton to kids and I believe it was much easier for them to understand.

    Actually I did the Physical Education course, apart when doing my assignments I don't remember ever using these terms... :p
     
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  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    In terms of biomechanics, forearm rotation (pronation) with a little bit of wrist flexion, plus some grip tightening is required for effective effortless forehand power.

    If anyone uses purely wrist flexion, they will soon realize thru pain that it doesn't work. Sure, in a desperate situation a stick smash with pure wrist flexion can work. It's annoying but I see LJB and some other KOR coaches show this erroneously in their videos.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
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  3. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Re you saying that a little bit of wrist flexion is required.. I don't think so, I think it depends on technique, whether a) a little bit of wrist flexion is required (what one person here insists on calling passive wrist flexion to belabour the point that it's not done for power) or b) no wrist flexion.

    (Of course nobody here is really in favour of lots of wrist flexion done for power, just to be clear we agree on that).

    LJB has some controversial methods of course, but I have never seen LJB use purely wrist flexion. His shots are quite powerful, you can't get much power with pure wrist flexion. Are you talking about bending the wrist past neutral for power? Or are you talking about wrist going from a point of extension, to neutral? It'd be interesting to see a video of what you are saying, (just to be clear, not as an example of how one should hit it, but to see LJB hitting it the way you are describing that he has!).
     
  4. asadafgs

    asadafgs Regular Member

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    Try this. When you are taught the overhead swing, it is taught as a swing with 4 parts. Part 2 is your elbow bent behind your head. Step 3 is when your arm is extended straight in front of you(i.e. right about where your contact point is). Go from step 2 to step 3. You'll find that you naturally pronate to do it
     
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  5. speCulatius

    speCulatius Regular Member

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    That made me laugh... I've seen so many ways new players find to work around that, that even when they have the racket taped to their hand with the correct grip, they'll find a way around it.

    Don't get me wrong, if I understand your method correctly, it works sometimes, probably more often than not (in this slow motion setting), but even then it doesn't always work.

    If 2 is "elbow bent behind your back", what is 1? Going from your point 2 to 3 really leaves a lot of room for interpretation (without visuals) and that's again where it's the difference between in person coaching and this...

    I suggest you to make a trial with people who have no idea about badminton, who have neither watched nor played before (thus no old habits either), show them 3 pictures, one of the correct grip, one of your step 2, one of your step 3 and ask them to record a video of their dry stroke. Let me know how often you see pronation. Then find out how many of them play other racket sports. ;)

    Just to round things up, I (and other Germans) number things differently and there's a step between "elbow behind head" and "actually hitting the shuttle". And again we're at a point where language plays an important role and cannot possibly be precise enough.
     
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  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    For people learning in mid 80’s, I agree the concepts were not that clear. However, you could learn from trial and error and if you were good, you could play for your country. However against the top pros, I think there would still be a lot of differences.

    For the international junior, assuming that he/she is of later teaching, I am sure they taught pronation. It’s just not taught with that terminology. For example, I don’t tell my kid to pronate her arm. I get her to think of when she hits the shuttle, to turn the face of the racquet outwards slightly just as she hits it? She has this habit of slightly slicing the shuttle to her right even though she’s hitting the shuttle perpendicular with the racquet string bed. So I asked her when she hits it, to have the racquet turned facing outwards a little more and voila - much better contact. You also have to give a lot of visual clues. Definitely kids will forget how they were taught, especially after a movement becomes really natural to them.
     
    #26 Cheung, Jan 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
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  7. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    I know a senior level player that was county champion and now plays for his country. And I agree that compared to the top international pros there would be a lot of differences..

    Also re 1980s hitting style compared to today, I think you once stated that they used to use the snapping the wrist method but not so much today? Out of interest, and you are one of the few here that could comment on it .. would you say there was a difference in the way they gripped the racket, or the contact point? (thus causing that difference re snapping the wrist). If so, what exactly was the difference? I could make a new thread asking that, rather than asking in this thread, if you prefer? (though you are actually possibly the only person on the forum that can answer it.. the few others that could possibly,aren't regulars on the forum these days)...and a question likes that gets a bunch of people that just don't understand the question even and then if they do they aren't aware of any differences!
     
  8. asadafgs

    asadafgs Regular Member

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    Snapping the wrist is still taught. The coach who coached me in China was very adamant about it!
     
  9. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I am lucky enough to have quite a bit of experience in UK and Asia. I am not sure if it was me who said they used the snapping wrist - perhaps I said it was taught it more but top players using snapping wrist? You might have to go back a few more decades.

    I see a big difference is the size of the handle. UK players like to build up the grip a lot - perhaps it being used to tennis size grips. This is even for accounting for he difference in size of the hands. This might not apply to the pros though. So for some shots and some amateur players, they might not have the same dexterity with finger manipulation during the pronation of the racquet head.

    In UK, you get a lot less exposure to classes for kids. I see many in the UK who would try to rely on strength to compensate for technique. However I did go to a county gold tournament about a year ago. I would say the technique of the players were pretty good and there were some very good matches to watch. The girls definitely have more variation - I think because most start sport a bit later than boys do.

    But definitely in Europe, there is much more variation in the overhead technique compared to Asia. For example, look at the European junior championships and there is a lot of different overhead preparation style. Whether that actually translates into big differences at the point of striking the shuttle, I can’t say for sure.

    The other thing is does a less standard technique mean that a player has a lower ceiling for improvement? If you have all the time in the world, imperfect preparation may be hidden - it’s when you have to run, are tired and still need to play a good stroke under pressure is when you see the problems.

    When I got to Asia, the grip size is much smaller and people have more recognisably standard strokes. Not everyone but in general. I think the differences are multifactorial but I can’t help thinking that the diameter of the grip is one fairly significant factor.
     
    #29 Cheung, Jan 3, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  10. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Re smaller grip size, much easier to generate finger power and deception.

    Sent from my SM-G988W using Tapatalk
     
  11. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Technically changing grip can mean thinkness of the grip.. or old fashioned towel grip or whatever but that doesn't influence things re snapping the wrist . It is not what I mean here by a different grip!

    I'm talking about forehand grip or basic grip or the degree of forehand grip and contact point(and possibly degree of body rotation too) , and orientation between racket handle and forearm, as an influence on whether one snaps the wrist.

    I am asking you if you have noticed a different grip in that sense, in the players that you have seen that used the snapping the wrist method.
     
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    They don't rotate the shoulders as much, they use the hips less, they have more bent elbow , they tend to hit to the right side of the body and shoulders.
     
  13. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    are you able to point to any example timeframes?

    from clips you've seen on youtube or e.g.from
     
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You would have to go back further in time.
     
  15. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Would you say this method is the snapping the wrist method you have in mind that you saw further back in time?

    (And just to be clear.. Snapping the wrist is a funny term, but this method involves just a little wrist flexion used, just to get the full pronation. Must be something about the grip eg orientation of racket in the hand, basic grip or degree of forehand grip, or contact point or degree of body rotation too 'cos with other methods you don't need any wrist flexion.)

     
    #35 ralphz, Jan 4, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
  16. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    If you look at that video I showed you of the guy that uses the snapping the wrist method, he is quite square on when he would hit it/make contact. So he's using the hips there.

    And it didn't look to me like he was hitting it far to the right side of his body, did you think he was?
     
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I think you are being a bit too literal. A person will have some of those characteristics to varying degrees. There would be inter-individual variability.
     
  18. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    There would be certain things that make 'wrist snapping to get full pronation' follow by necessity, and that's what i'm trying to get at here! I certainly don't think hitting it wide would ever be one of them! I can't see how a partial turn would either. I think being square could make it necessary when not wide. The video of that guy is a good example of where I see it happening. I can't see it happening in the circumstances you describe.

    But if you don't have footage of it to show and it is something that you have seen pre 1980s so over 40 years ago then I guess you are speaking from memories that are over 40 years old?
     
    #38 ralphz, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
  19. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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  20. ralphz

    ralphz Regular Member

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    Thanks. Though I don't think there is any timeframe there where it is possible to see if their wrist is in flexion!
     

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