Badminton in Japan

Discussion in 'Japan Professional Players' started by gaDEfan, May 6, 2007.

  1. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    Hi Kurako, can you told me what Nakanishi talked to Nishimoto in the match last night in interval time?
     
  2. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    In crucial time, such as 19-19, 20-20, Momota played like boss, he was calm and confident with his shots.

    Nishimoto seems to be scare this kind of situations, as if he wasn't ready for this.

    If you want to be in top ten, you have to face with this kind of situations and cool like the way Momota done.
     
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  3. kurako

    kurako Regular Member

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    Interval 1 was a bit garbled. I do not think that any sentences were strung together, but Nakanishi seemed to advise Nishimoto to employ drop shots more to draw Gemke to the fore-court, and take the game there, rather than focusing on smashing from the back-court.

    In Interval 2, the advice was to focus on his own game, and not worry so much about what his opponent was going to do. Worrying too much about Gemke would result in Nishimoto's own rhythm being broken. Nishimoto was told to clear his mind, and to raise the pace.
     
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  4. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    got it! the coach gave a good advise.
     
  5. Pcyl

    Pcyl Regular Member

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    I think Nishimoto has improved the quality of his shots. But he failed to mix up his shots more. After drawing Gemke to the front , then what? He should quickly take note of how Gemke handle the front court and then take the game from there. I think he should try 2/3 or 1/2 smash now and then, short hold and wait before reply, sudden fast reply (taking the shuttle early), half smash, tap tap, full smash .... I notice that Nishimoto likes to get comfortable and fall into a set pattern of play and becomes predictable. But I do notice that the quality of his strokes has improved ... and he maintained his good retrieval abilities.
     
    #1965 Pcyl, Oct 18, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
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  6. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    nishi's biggest obstacle is his predictability.

    his overall game is fine, but, he lacks a special extraordinary skill or technique that would make him a top 10 player. if you glance at the top 10 names you can instantly think of at least one special aspect about that player.

    journeymen —across all sports— lack those types of traits.
     
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  7. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    I have to go to hospital while watching 5 final matches (Fuku/Hiro vs Matsumoto/Nagahaga) because of fever virus and cannot reply soon.

    I think you was right. I feel that Nishimoto has all the ingredients in the kitchen but he hasn't known how to cook yet.

    a "nice soup or delicious bread" needs time, experience and formula to make.
     
    #1967 terrynguyen121988, Oct 20, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  8. Pcyl

    Pcyl Regular Member

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    Get well soon!
     
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  9. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Nothing new in part 1 of this BWF interview of PJB, except the confirmation that club teams are the ones making decisions in Japan, it perspires in the whole interview.

    Discussions regarding this topic as been ongoing and imo it is or will become an issue soon. Granted, Japan is experiencing a wonderful generation of players but it's already time to think about the next one (it's already late imo) and this system is not helping the national team staff, including PJB, to deliver their best. If NO is successful with her medal quest at Tokyo 2020+1 would it change anything? Doubtful. She is seen as an outcast.

    PJB: "Actually, all the players were ready to come. We had restarted the training on 1st October to prepare for the Denmark Open. Then just a few days before the tournament, there was a spike in numbers in Denmark and the club owners asked the players to stay back. We had confirmed everything — hotel, flight tickets, everything was confirmed… but at the last minute, the situation changed."

    https://bwfbadminton.com/news-single/2020/10/21/our-players-are-back-at-earlier-level-park-joo-bong/
     
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  10. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    in the current bwf system i hate with a passion —and needs to be abolished— japan provides the best career path for a badminton athlete. the corporate clubs & japanese gov't share the cost of running the team. the biggest advantage is the athletes receive a steady employment salary and do not have any financial stress regardless of their world ranking/success. it makes becoming the best player you can much easier.

    japan owns the army.
    the clubs own the soldiers.

    japan pays for the wars and needs soldiers to fight.
    the clubs pay for the soldiers.

    hard to say who needs who more.
     
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  11. kurako

    kurako Regular Member

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    Nice analogy, ... and it wasn't working too badly. Things get messy, however, when GHQ, on one hand, and the miscellany of regiments, on the other, perceive their mission to differ.
     
  12. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    I have a lot of questions and I tried to search the forum but I couldn't find much so apologies if it has already been explained here.

    While I understand a bit how badminton function in Japan including how players are receiving a salary from their respective corporate clubs, here are my questions, if anyone knows:

    - how much are they actually paid?

    - Is the salary the same for every player of the team (within the same club)? Is there a distinction between badminton categories? Is there a distinction between men and women?

    - how long on average does a player remain salaried by the company while playing? How long until a player is pushed to stop his/her career?

    - how about after their career? Are they always being proposed a job within the club's company at the end of their career?
    Do players actually really remain loyal to the club's company on the long term?

    I mean yes it is an interesting system but not everyone is KM. Where's the next generation? And pre KM it was ok but it wasn't placing Japan at the top of the world either in terms of badminton pure performances.

    Personally I'm dubious about this system the way it works at the moment given the information I know about it. Yes I find it great when it comes to players receiving a steady salary from their club's sponsor/company but I personally don't know the details and I find the clubs having more weight on the balance than the national badminton entity.
     
  13. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    their salary depends on what job they're hired for other than badminton: marketing, accounting, customer service, engineer, developer, janitor, legal department, research, etc... the ?'s i have are:
    • how much of the prize money 'earned' typically goes to the player?
    • is it negotiable during the hiring process?
    • do the coaches also hold jobs within the company or are they strictly badminton coaches?
    the intent of both sides —company & player— is to have a career at the company after your playing days are over. but, you know, life changes over time.

    that's a good ?'n. i take it by 'career' you mean playing on the bwf circuit. i'm sure it has to do with your world ranking situation. if your ranking continues to fall the company can always decide to stop sending you to tournaments. if you're maintaining a high ranking i expect it's the opposite. since the clubs still play in a league not every player in a club is going to be an active bwf circuit player. older ex/retired 'professionals' can still play for their company teams in the league.

    building a powerhouse takes time. km is part of that 'next generation'. it all started in 2004: https://www.badmintoncentral.com/fo...o-bong-to-coach-japanese-badminton-team.1854/

    badminton doesn't operate under a correct system right now due to their master/slave rule. even a nat'l badminton entity should not be able to own the athletes of an individual sport. thanks to bwf 'somebody' —a corporation or gov't— is always going to own the athlete and call the shots, thereby giving said 'team' control over the sport. in this instance nba looks innocent, but, they also have next to no risk. if nba owned and paid the players their decisions would be different.
     
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  14. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    Thanks you for your answer. While I agree on many points (I really like the stable environment it provides Japanese players with a steady income) allow me to disagree on others:

    - KM is 26, he is still very young but will already be 30 for paris 2024. I meant by new generation the next one.

    - I know the bwf system isn't perfect and asks for a reform but what about Japan's club system? When KM's club asks him to stay home while he wanted (I doubt he was not eager to show up at the Danemark open) to play and this tournament was important, can we really say for sure the system in Japan is any less of a "slave/master" rule? We don't really know how it works inside the corportations/clubs. My guess is it's harsher than we imagine for the average players who don't perform as expected and players, including top ones, are very dependent of clubs' decisions.
     
  15. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    you mean yuta watanabe's generation? they're in the system and working their way up: https://www.badminton.or.jp/en/national/member/2020.html#groupB

    the japanese system is a byproduct of bwf's rule of player ownership. if the bwf rule did not exist players would not have to seek employment at a company in order to pursue a badminton career. they would be free to pursue their career as they see fit and enter any tournament they choose. they would have the same freedom of career path as other professional individual sports: tennis, golf, racing, skiing, surfing, skate/snowboarding, you name it...

    badminton 'teams' only play against other 'teams' in pursuit of a 'team' score once per year under bwf's umbrella, so why is it run like a team sport all the time? oh, and for zero prize money. any excuse bwf spews to justify the rule is bullshit. there is no logical, ethical or moral justification for it. think about it... you are not allowed to conduct your own career your own way your entire life unless your original federation lets you. bwf has indirectly bestowed upon them a legal right to keep you forever, having no legal obligation to release you.

    i suppose it would depend on the level of importance a company places on badminton. obviously some do more than others. you can tell by their player rosters, haha! how much pressure would you exert on a non-revenue generating division of the company? how important is your corporate badminton pride for the sake of your country? :D
     
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  16. LenaicM

    LenaicM Regular Member

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    It's a really complex issue and to be honnest I don't have deeper knowledge about it to push the discussion any further. I need to learn a bit more about the systems first (BWF and Japan).

    Thanks for sharing your take on the issue, I learnt a few things along the way.
     
  17. kurako

    kurako Regular Member

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    Some of your questions have been answered before, albeit on the original 'Momota Thread', which is still in limbo.

    @kwun, the only reason I still occasionally visit/contribute to this site is because I am holding out hope that the page will be restored. I think that is what you promised. If you have decided not to bother, can you let me know?

    Back to the questions posed by @LenaicM. I am not sure about the answer to all of these, but the issue of NBA vs corporate teams has gained in significance since the advent of COVID-19. Nevertheless, it is difficult to make generalisations because each corporate team has its own philosophy vis-a-vis employment. Anyway, as a basic response:

    Salaries are not made public. Nevertheless, it is safe to assume that they are NOT uniform.

    What needs to be considered here is that some corporations (notably NTT-East, Saishunkan, Hitachi, Mitsubishi) employ the players as salaried workers; i.e., the players actually have a position in the company, even nominally, be it in sales, marketing, customer services, or whatever. These players will receive a salary according to normal rules based on length of service, initial level of education (HS graduates OR university graduates), etc. I am not sure about the existence of additional allowances, but Momota, for example, will be earning more due to his promotion of Yonex and other goods. Let me add that players employed by these corporations have the guarantee of lifetime employment within the company once they retire from active competition.

    Here, I cannot see any salary distinctions based on category being made. As for gender-based distinctions: All I can say with confidence is that, as female players tend to enter corporation straight after HS, rather than university, their salaries will tend to be lower on average.

    On the other hand, corporations such as Nihon Unisys and Tonami offer contract employment to their players. Here, salaries are negotiated directly with the players in question, and there will be much more divergence across the board, based on perceived potential/actual results. Needless to say, in this case, there is no prospect of lifetime employment, and with the exception of the sprinkling of elite players who proceed to continue as team coaches, the vast majority need to find a second career.

    I believe that these questions are partly answered above. It really does depend whether the player is employed by the company in question as a fully-fledged worker, or as a contract player.

    Sakai Kazuma (Unisys) and Takeshita Riichi (Tonami), both of whom were very prominent men's singles players, depended on contract employment, and had to look hard for 'second career' openings once they knew that their contracts would not be renewed. Both of them were/are still producing enviable results at the domestic level. Indeed, Sakai is seeded as MS No. 5 in the All Japan Championships scheduled to take place this December, ahead of Watanabe Koki, who is a Team A player!

    Good question. Japan is an inward-looking society; priority is given to domestic affairs and, quite frankly, the outside is of secondary concern. Japanese badminton changed with the advent of Park Joo Bong, but there is a real danger that Covid-19 will destroy what he has built up over the last fifteen years, or so. The corporate teams have their images to worry about, and do not want to take any risks. This takes precedence over individual players' wishes.

    And, what will happen when Park Joo Bong's contract expires after the Olympics? Many of the international coaches currently employed by the NBA were recruited by him; will they stay on?

    Talking of future generations, one potentially bright prospect is MS player, Naraoka Kodai, currently in National Team B (but already a better player than Team A member, Watanabe Koki). Naraoka graduated from HS this March, and ended up neither joining a corporate team nor enrolling at a university. He has a loose affiliation to IMG, a management company, but that is all. In short, he is a 'pro'. What is more, he is a 'pro' from the outset. It is going to be interesting to see how he will survive in Japan's institutionalised system of badminton.
     
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  18. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    img's role is to find him endorsements and other sources of income.
    i hope he or his father don't do anything to upset nba to the point nba refuses to enter him in tournaments.

    i'm curious what kind of deal (contract) he has negotiated with nba regarding expenses & prize winnings. being unaffiliated would lead me to assume he would pay his own travel expenses and keep 100% of his prize money earnings. but what about coaching? is he paying nba a fee for nat'l training camps? what about the time when a nat'l camp isn't going on, is he paying one of the corporate clubs to train with them or does he have a self-funded private training staff?

    his future success would reinforce the argument that bwf's rule which mandates an athlete be owned by a member assn. is oppressive and unnecessary for the future of the sport.
     
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  19. kurako

    kurako Regular Member

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    There is no negotiation. Naraoka is a national team member; accordingly, the NBA picks up most of the tab for the cost of flights, accommodation, and daily allowances with respect to all international tournaments that Team B is officially despatched to. Players are only asked to pay 50,000 yen for each of these tournaments.

    However, if Naraoka were to apply to the NBA to participate in an international tournament that was not on the official schedule for Team B, then this would be self-financed.

    As far as prize money is concerned, the NBA will take 10%, with the rest being sent to the player, usually via his/her corporate team. The corporate team sometimes also takes a cut. In the case of Naraoka, this role may be assumed by his father.

    With regard to training: The NBA charges all team members 10,000 yen for each national training session, ... a pittance. Apart from these camps, I am not sure how Naraoka manages his training regimen. I do not think he trains with a corporate team, and envisage that he probably spends time with his father, and possibly also at Nihon University's training facilities, although I am not sure.
     
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  20. terrynguyen121988

    terrynguyen121988 Regular Member

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    10 000 yen for each person or for the whole team ?
     

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