New to stringning Some questions..

Discussion in 'Badminton Stringing Techniques & Tools' started by pucko, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. pucko

    pucko Regular Member

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    Hello,

    My frist stringin machine will probably arrive next week and I've started to read as much as I can about how to string. I have one question.

    I have seen that I should add 10% extra on the crosses. So if I have the main at 10kg the crosses should be at 11 . But what is the tension in the racket then? is it 10kg or 11kg? Also if a racket is specified for
    10kg does that mean that I can have 10 at the mains and 11 at the crosses, or shoud I lower the mains so the crosses stays within 10?
     
  2. Dekkert

    Dekkert Regular Member

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    Hi Pucko, welcome to the club! There is no definite answer to that. And it all depends on what machine you have and on how you mount your racket. Most important thing is you can keep the frame of the racket in original shape. After that it is all about preference to the feeling of the stringbed.

    According to the latest video clips and insights of official Yonex stringing members they do
    1) 10 kg: M=10 and C= +10%
    2) 10 kg: M=9,5 and C=10,5 (one pound up and one pound down)

    3) I still do square M=C.

    However, soon Thyrif and I will do some tests where we string the same rackets with these three different stringing methods and measure with some digital calipers what it will do to the frame compared to original unstrung racket. Right after stringing and over time after playing with them.

    I would say: read the thread Covid-19 SIP Racket Stringing videos, let's learn together! Most important things are mentioned in there with many video clips to watch.

    Good luck with your first stringjobs and let us know how it went. BTW, what machine did you order?
     
  3. BadBadmintonPlayer

    BadBadmintonPlayer Regular Member

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    The racquet contracts slightly at the main strings. Through the cross strings it goes then again into the original Shape.

    But if you pull 10kg apart, then it becomes 10.5kg. The cross strings with 11kg are pulled together and then also land at 10.5kg.

    But it depends on the stringing machine.
    2 point = + 10% cross
    6 point = + 5% cross

    This is my way.
    [​IMG]
     
  4. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    not only that. after you pull the cross string, the main strings are no longer straight. the zigzagging (and thus lengthening) of the main strings also increase tension.
     
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  5. pucko

    pucko Regular Member

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  6. kakinami

    kakinami Regular Member

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    Wow looks pretty sick! Good luck with your stringing career! Looks like you made an investment. I hope you learn to love how to string! My first racket was about 2 hours and 45 minutes, try to break my record but learn how to be consistent and patient! If you have stringing questions PM anyone giving you advice in this thread, they are all here to help you out, one of them might respond. Peace out and look forward to seeing a video of you stringing in the future! I would like to see you string and learn any techniques you might have picked up!

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
     
  7. pucko

    pucko Regular Member

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    It will take time until I get the speed up I guess. I only intend to string my own rackets so I will not get so much training. If it takes 3hours that's fine to me as long as it becomes good, so I won't try to break any records here :) . (it is better than the one week I have to wait for a stringjob in the only shop next to me, and that I'm not so satisfied with the strings offered). I will watch videos and try to follow them exactly until I learn enough and get a good feeling. Mabe it is a bit stupid to put those mone on a machine when you only are going to string for your self.But when thinking on it, it is less money than a smoker that smokes one package of cigaretts each day pay each year. With that in mind, the money are well spent.
     
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  8. Super85

    Super85 Regular Member

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    You already thinking like a stringer here, so I guess you’ll end-up fine. Buying a great serious machine from start will save you the extra money when you want to upgrade to a better machine like I did!
     
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  9. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Just start with getting the basics right before digging into anything fancy. Make sure that you mount the racket correctly, that your clamps are setup well and then go on with the basic 2-piece pattern. Try not to get too frustrated during the first 10 jobs (cause there will be some frustration guaranteed) and remember that the most important thing to develop a smooth workflow is nothing but routine. And as @kakinami said, don't hesitate to ask your questions in here or send anyone a PM. We've all been in your position and remember still well the feeling.
    My first job: 3 hours... and then the string snapped at the final tie-off knot... fun times. :D
     
    #9 s_mair, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  10. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    Check out the SIP video thread linked and the youtube video about shared holes by kwun (on youtube badminton central channel?)

    Good luck Pucko, we're all here for you!

    PS: a little jelly for that magnificent machine :D
     
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  11. kakinami

    kakinami Regular Member

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  12. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    But also lose? Due the shape of the racket, you can't clamp the mains so close to the frame like the crosses. Especially the other ones and depending on the starting routine the first ones because the clamp bases are in their way. Also the mains have due the length more potential loss per meter compared to the cross. If 4 piece you can also count in the the two tie-off, string is longer in the frame...IMO there must be something why square work. I also believed this zigzagging main tensioning theory for many years, since I discovered that over the lifetime of my own string jobs (3-4 weeks) the racket became slightly longer and more narrow, even when they came out of the machine spot on.
     
  13. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    square works because it is designed that way.

    mains and cross are not the same. mains are denser (strings are closer together) while cross are further apart. mains are also pulling the stiffer dimension of the racket (the taller side of the "egg" shape). all these balances each other out and the result is that main=cross tension result in a equilibrium tension to keep the racket shape.

    the racket head is also not a noodle, it has a certain stiffness to it, therefore +/- 10% difference in tension isn't going to deform the racket that much.
     
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  14. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    to throw more variables into the mix in order to get a more complete picture.

    when mains are pulled, the whole segment of the string gets full tension. from grommet to grommet. when cross are pulled, the friction from the main strings decreases some tension. (that's why I advocate nudging the cross string after it is pull as dynamics friction is less than static friction).

    end support stiffness. some machine like mine has soft end support, i lose a few mm after the mains are pulled. vs others like Yonex which is like a tank.

    side support stiffness, my machine on the other hand, has very strong side support, vs my old machine which the arm are like noodles.

    fixed clamp setback. even the best machine has a 1mm or so (poor machine has even more). again my Gamma is notoriously bad at it. I have to compensate it by nudging the clamp base every time I clamp cross strings.

    so many variables, and all these contribute to how cross should be tensioned (in order to compensate). some of it are mechanical issues, and some are stringer technique issue. How is it possible for someone to purely just say, "oh, yeah, add 10%" and fixes it all?

    that's why I always says, experiment with the tension ratio and see which one gives the result with your machine and stringing style.
     
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  15. Mark A

    Mark A Regular Member

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    This is one of the oldest questions in stringing, I am afraid :) "10 kg" could denote

    10/10
    9/10
    10/11
    or 9.5/10.5

    and I have seen all four in my time; personally, I used 9/10 - crosses add tension to the mains, so the mains will end up closer to 10, making a "true" 10/10. But that's just me.

    You will have to experiment with your machine and see what it "prefers" - string the racket and check the measurements against an empty frame. If the racket is too wide, use a 10% reduction in the mains and try again.
     
  16. llrr

    llrr Regular Member

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    You won't go wrong with equal tensions. My stringer strings equal and even up to 32lbs I don't notice any difference in frame shape. There are probably minute differences but it's not important enough imo.
     
  17. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I kindly disagree here. The mains are often clamped a few cm away from the frame. The reason behind this are the shape of the frame, the directions of the mains and the geometry of the clamp (lever) the bases and the inner support at 12 and 6 o'clock. To explain better what I mean, I took some screenshots from your video. I hope this is okay. If it offends you please edit my post to delete them.

    12 and 6 o'clock supports don't allow to clamp close to the frame. The segment which is not tensioned get tensioned by the next pulled main, but there is also grommet friction, so also some friction. How much influence I can't tell.

    main1.png


    Here the clamp bases get in their way. The segment is naturally on all machines quite large. Some get tensioned from the next main pulled, but again there is some grommet friction and also loss.

    main2.png


    Due the lever, some distance due the frame shape is also natural on the mains. You can't turn the clamps at this state by 180° because the lever get blocked by the other clamp. And again the next pulled main will compensate but not 100%. I don't know the amount which get lost, but also some loss.

    main3.png

    Second picture continue what issue, I mean. It's not sloppy, the clamps and frame and whole built allow not to clamp closer.

    main4.png

    Outer mains, if not double pulled also create some space which can't clamped close to the frame. Also the some loss, whose amount must be discussed.

    main6.png

    Your arguement is valid that cross strings don't get tensioned full due friction. IMO the friction is not constant and depending on technique (massage the strings), the setting (PS on/off), the string texture and at least the friction increase the closer you get to the top. Also the zigzagging and how much the mains get tensioned due the cross depend on the gauge of the string.

    I personally don't know how much tension get lost due the clamping of the mains like in the pictures. IMO there must some, by how much I don't know and can't tell, but there must something.

    I often thought how the hell square can work. The racket, my machine...there is friction on the cross, the ziggzagging until looked closer on the tensioning the mains and also discovered that their tensioning is not superior and perfect compared to the cross. Some friction is existent on the compensation of the next main pull. Clamping issues are existent depinding on base, lever and bulkyness of the clamp. Now my question: Could it be that the loss on the main (without knowing by how much) is enough to make square tensions also make work on some machines, which have good side supports? Is the clamping closer to the frame of the crosses the advantage which even out this?
     

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  18. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    That is a very good question indeed. The question I have is this: Does that bigger clamping distance to the frame really result in an effective tension loss in the end and if so, how big is it? I mean, with the next pull, the part that's between the clamp and the frame will be tensioned again before you release the clamp again. The only loss that might happen is caused by the friction of the grommets.

    So in the end, you will have that bit between clamp and frame seeing an effective tension of the set value minus the grommet friction that will spread to the whole length of the string once you release the clamp. And since the string is still under tension at that point, it's even possible that parts of that "loss" is re-pulled after loosening the clamp. So my gut feel would say that the effective tension loss coming from the clamp distance to the frame is existing, but marginal at best. The problem is, I have no idea how a setup could look like that can actually measure it... :confused:
     
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  19. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    I was taught to always clamp as close to the frame without having any moment anything from the clamp could touch the frame or supports. If there is only a very tiny margin of loss at best due the grommet friction why we (it's exaggerated) don't clamp in the middle of the string because the next pull will tension? Why we don't use it to speed up the main routine, by not beeing so accurate to clamp closest to the frame without touching? Why we condemn double pulling on the other side, when the friction is just by a small margin? I know it sounds like stringing science with Cheech and Chong.
     
    #19 ucantseeme, Jun 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2020
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  20. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Of course, the bigger the distance between clamp and frame, the more of the “double pull” effect you will get into the string. Question is (and will remain), are those ~2 cm enough to make a noticeable difference? But you’re right, as small as the effect might be, it will be in the direction that the mains are losing tension tension compared to the crosses that are clamped closer to the frame.
     
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