NEW: Fixed Height Experiment for Service

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by CantSmashThis, Jan 10, 2013.

  1. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    This is insanity, It was me who told you that, look back through.


    It is not a given point in your rule. If you reckon it is where is it then tell me? "Obviously below the net"- how many cm from the ground is this?


    It doesn't shift the burden of proof on the server for all the reasons we have told you. How can you say it is unimportant at the moment. It is the whole basis of your rule and the reason it has been shot down. It is crucial.

    [/QUOTE]Because you want to interpret "obvious" counter to the way I intended and have explained, is why we have gone in circles. Look if I omitted the word obvious would you still have a problem with subjectivity of the rule "the serve must be hit in a upward direction"?[/QUOTE]
    I am not interpreting "obvious" any which way, I am telling you it is not possible to interpret obvious.
    And with regards to your question I already answered that, in fact it was me who suggested for it to be a revised version remember?:eek:
     
  2. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    I'm going to try to go back to basics here:

    problem with the current rule - hard to distinguish the contact point for which to call a serve fault (too high).

    potential alternative: serve must be hit upwards.
    problem according to v1lau: it's not easy to judge between flat and slightly up.
    proposed solution1: same rule, but judge can interpret differently. e.g. if judge is not sure shuttle is going up then he must call fault. Judge will only not call a fault when he is sure the shuttle is going upwards.

    This just means the judge can 'legally' make mistakes. It has not removed the error of human perception.

    proposed solution2: When serving, it is the player's responsibility to satisfy the judge that the shuttle's initial trajectory is upwards.

    This practically identical to solution1.

    In summary: v1lau, your proposal does not remove human error. It does not fix anything. It just makes the judge infallible.
     
  3. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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  4. blableblibloblu

    blableblibloblu Regular Member

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    well well well there's only one way out of this

    Tee-Ball stands that fall back into the mat once you hit the serve hahahaha
     
  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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  6. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    ^ Lol! What's the story behind this? :)
     
  7. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    It's a bus lane where the bollards are controlled by radio(?) signal/transmitter on the buses. If you don't have the signal, you're not getting through. Evidently, someone thought they could outsmart the bollards!
     
  8. randomuser

    randomuser Regular Member

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    you just need a pen-sized thing near the service judge. it's not difficult at all. well maybe in MX the lady may be positioned in a way that blocks the laser... but that's almost like having her block the view of the service judge, which doesnt happen much i think.

    another way would be to mount a horizontally level camera at 110cm
     
  9. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    A pen sized thing near the service judge? what do you mean? thanks

    If it's lasers on the court I don't think that is gonna work really, probably too off putting and unnecessary.
     
  10. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    How about putting two sheets of glasses in front of the service judge? Draw red lines on them respectively at 110cm. Will that work?
     
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  11. randomuser

    randomuser Regular Member

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    two red strings would work just as well
    or maybe one string and some markings on the netpost

    google laser level
    it's jsut like a laser pointer but it projects a line.

    but yea, i think using a mechanical indicator is simpler
     
  12. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Haha Why would I need to google laser level, I know what that is I just didn't know what you were referring to with "pen sized thing". Many problems with shining a laser at players, not gonna work.
    I don't think the solution is hard as stated before, the serve judges cubicle could be walled at 1.1 meter and just have a chin rest to hunker down on whilst serve is happening, if you see the shuttle contact then fault, this would be accurate and calibrated . A more basic solution is just have a 1.1m stick with a t bar on top, move it about where you want with a (adjustable) chin ledge on the shaft.

    All this string, net post markings is gonna require too much eyeballing rather than accuracy as no calibration.

    If no calibration you might aswell just keep the current inconsistently judged rule
     
    #152 craigandy, Aug 24, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  13. Junye

    Junye Regular Member

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    Axelsen:
    Just found out BWF will try out new service height: 1.15m starting from All England 2018. Don't know what to say other than I find this change extremely hard to understand.

    I've said before, but you don't lower the basket in basketball just because shorter persons doesn't have the same advantage when it comes to dunking as taller persons have.

    Being tall also brings you quite a few disadvantages as a badminton player and In my opinion, being able to serve a bit higher is the just an advantage your height gives you in our sport. On the other hand being shorter also gives you quite a few advantages. At least IMO.

    And YES I know that the service situation especially doubles is a problem sometimes, but changing the service height is not the right way to handle it in my opinion.

    And to those who say I'm just a cry baby because I'm a tall player myself I say: My serve can't get that much worse anyway, so I'll find a way to make it work. I still think this rule is a joke.

    Well, I guess Mads Kolding and I will have to back on track with our service training.
     
  14. eiji

    eiji Regular Member

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    Who's making up this stupid rule
     
  15. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    This as a rule on principle is already a big joke.. Like come on BWF. I know umpires and service judges are only human. But they're supposed to be PROFESSIONALS ffs, yet 90% of the time, they can't even call their service faults right. Get your people trained properly. Don't change the rules just because they aren't even being enforced properly instead. I won't deny, the current rules are flawed and I'm sure someone smarter than me can suggest a more ingenious solution to it. But they at least work to an extent now.

    Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk
     
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  16. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    This. And there is nothing more to add.

    For sure, this is not an easy rule to make simple yes/no decisions. But will setting a general height limit instead make it that much easier? I don't think so. There will be the same issues with players that currently have a questionable service action. I wonder if BWF is thinking about an automatic camera based sensor system to replace the service judges in the long term or if they plan to give the service judges some kind of technical assistance for their judgements.

    -OT-
    From VA's FB-post:
    "And to those who say I'm just a cry baby because I'm a tall player myself I say: My serve can't get that much worse anyway, so I'll find a way to make it work."
    ...L M F A O :D
     
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  17. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    what can you expect for free? umpires are volunteers and their evaluation process is a joke, void of impartiality. only a technological solution can eliminate the problem.

    something along the lines of hawkeye paired with a database of the players' physical location of a legal serve. tech wise it's not hard to do. however, time & money are a different matter.

    in the meantime don't expect the quality of umpiring to change. ever.
     
  18. Ch1k0

    Ch1k0 Regular Member

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    I never said I did. But if you're gonna change something, change the part of the system that is failing the most. All this rile change is gonna do is create a same **** different day scenario. That's what makes me annoyed.

    I respect umpires for being professionals working in their own lines dedicating time to a common passion of out sport. But they have also been the biggest issue in the recent couple of years when it comes to poor service judgement.

    Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk
     
  19. Phonjomtien

    Phonjomtien New Member

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    I think everyone agrees the service rules need to be modified. There is no point having rules which are so difficult to measure. The biggest problem is in the men's doubles which has turned the game into a serve and return match. Often there are few rallies in the top men's doubles because the point is normally over after the third shot. For me a much easier solution would be to change the receiving service box to the singles service line. This would force the receiver to move back from the service line to avoid being flicked. Also the server would feel less pressure to make the perfect serve thus fewer fault serves. There should be some advantage when serving, at the moment there is none. In the near future I'm sure that Hawkeye can run all the lines without human intervention announcing the score after each point. Only needs the service and the over the net shots to be sorted. But machines are coming, soon only 1 game referee will be needed.

    Sent from my U FEEL using Tapatalk
     
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  20. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    I mean we all knew this was coming.

    Doubles can be a little problematic as is because some players get a little... trigger happy on return of service. Sometimes it's a little questionable about if they're actually waiting for the serve to be carried out before moving, but it's difficult to call someone on it unless it's blatant (I had someone move and I actually stopped mid serve, before I'd hit the shuttle, because they moved early, to explain they had to wait for me to actually strike the shuttle).
     

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