@MSeeley Just wanted to speak on behalf of the OP, I don't get the impression he's aggressively negative towards his partner. He is seeking advice from fellow BCers on how to reach his partner who is not on the same page with respect to rotation. The OP is also an intermediate player which means to me he's still has things to work on (just like me) and he may not be at a level where he can cover up for his partner's lack of rotation effectively. You are an advanced player as well as a coach so you have a solid foundation to rely on to make up for your partner's deficiencies. I know what it's like to play with a superior partner as my teammate. My game is exponentially better because he makes up for every little mistake that I make. I come back to earth when I play with another intermediate teammate. I sympathize with the OP's situation because in my experience the movement is so disjointed and confusing that it is difficult to play my game. If it's just a matter of broken rotation, I am personally okay with that. It just puts a lot of doubt in my mind on movement. If I am constantly wondering if I should stay back or follow up a shot, I would be playing very defensively because we are not working as a team. That said, I would still be okay with it because winning is not that big a deal to me. But it makes it extremely difficult when your partner is constantly giving you "advice" on what to do when in your mind you are doing the correct thing. In the OP's case, his partner is practically blaming him after every point. In the heat of competition, it is difficult not to feel frustrated. As far as the OP playing the same tactics as his partner, my opinion is that he wasn't necessarily being a bad sport or disrespectful. He was probably trying to follow his partner's advice to make the partnership work.
I think Mark's point is that OP could spend more time focusing on improving his own game, instead of changing others', and esp. when other don't feel they need to change. I could empathize your point that it could be confusing. So the confusion could be resolved here in BF. Hopefully all the discussions have been helping. The remaining question however is what else OP could do, now that he seems to be surrounded by people that don't know how to play properly. If he keeps "practicing" this way, he would soon be unable to play properly too. Hopefully, he could find a different club where more people know how to play more often than not.
I can understand too. The reason I gave my advice and it sounds a little harsh, is that I used to think in the same way and I used to get confused, upset and frustrated with my partners, and it held my game back. I may well have misread the sentences about deliberately copying the partners tactics and deliberately hitting the shuttle out and into the net. But it has given me the impression that the OP is not trying their hardest or focussing on their own game, but is out to sabotage the game on occasion, as a result of their frustration. What I want is for the OP, and all players, to change their way of thinking and come to realise that they have a lot more power to change the situation than they believe they have. Yes, I believe that the OPs grasp of tactics is fine (and I have said so in my post), but there is more to this than just confirming what the "correct" way of playing is. The real question is what should you do in those situations? And my answer is simple: change your game. You said that having a partner on a different page to you will stop you playing "your game"... this is my point. You can change your game. You can try and make it work. You can accept that its you that needs to change, even if its only for a single game with a single partner. But to constantly assume that your partner needs to change, or to get into arguments, does not actually solve the situation. You cannot teach these players how to play... so the only thing you can do is try to make it work! I really do sympathise with the OP and others in this situation. It has happened to me before, but I wish someone had sat me down and told me to take responsibility for the situation, because as soon as I stopped blaming my partner, and started making proactive changes, I started playing at a much higher standard with everyone I played with. If my partner can only play in a certain way, and is not capable of using the same tactics I would expect of other partners, then it is my job to change my game to make this partnership work with this partner. Re-reading my post, it does seem unnecessarily harsh. That wasn't my intention, and i'm sorry if it came across that way. However, I hope you can read it in the manner I intended: take control of your game, and learn to accommodate a bad partner. Every bad partner is an opportunity to improve yourself and play better, even if its only for a short time. Maybe the OP is frustrated because he is being blamed for losing the rally, but it sounds as if it is an argument, not a lecture - meaning that the argument is two way - each player blaming each other. Over and over again. The OP can stop this happening by changing his game (using clears instead of smashes etc.) so he should try to do so! Again - sorry if I came across harsh before. Not my intention!
I like the sentiment, but I just don't think it's true. If you mainly play with partners who play "bad doubles", then you become habituated to playing bad doubles yourself. It messes with your instincts. If you want to be a better doubles player, you need to play more good doubles.
I sort of agree. My wife tells me that when I play with advanced players, I look like an advanced player. When I play with intermediate players, I look like an intermediate player. However, one can't always find a game with advanced players. Then what perhaps Mark is suggesting is to not worry about your partner who may be set in his ways, but focus on improving one's own skill/technique.
I ultimately agree with you but having a 'bad' partner is not an acceptable excuse for not trying to do your part to make the partnership work. You should be the best partner possible regardless of whom you play with. In the short term you should improve your skills so that you become good enough to go to the good clubs and play with the good players! Anyhoo... I am sure the OP has plenty of things to consider!
Ususlly those who learnt badminton through playing would end up with these tactics. If it works with the partner he has been playing with, it should work with others too. Whether it's "Good" or "Bad" doubles, this good partnership could win them some games in their regular sessions. Problem will come when this player teams up with a properly trained "Good" doubles palyer. This new partnership obviously will not work. I'm trying to say is as a team, cover the shortcomings and gloryify what is working. I too have such problems when team up with a newbie or better players. I found out later stages that I'm the one who can make of break this partnership.
I see this situation quite commonly in Malaysia. There are individuals who have played a long time, can run and hit a shuttle but have absolutely no idea where to position themselves on court. Usually it's a social game and I tend not to say anything (though one time was a bit difficult). If I am playing for drinks, then this is different! I saw one of your old videos of your group playing. To be honest, the level of play is fairly mediocre and there is no interest in positioning correctly around court. You would have to search out a different group of players who have more insight into moving around court but you would also have to improve your own technique. Why improve your technique? Because people will only listen to much better players - not to others who are a little bit better.
^ looked up OP's old videos and I would say OP's probably beginner level at best, and group would be lower intermediate level. I would say OP is the type that will develop bad playing habit in long run due to incorrect technique type of recreational player (maybe lacking physical fitness or misunderstanding the knowledge of technique?). Your seem-to-be-in-depth knowledge about the game and how you really play on court turn out to be very different. If OP would provide us with some new videos it would be nice to see if you have improved^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL5pdiVQge0 OP mentioned he's the one wearing track pants. I think it's better to get a proper coaching to fix all those wrong techniques before it all get stuck in your playstyle, up your OWN game rather than worrying about your partners'.
i think it is a very very bad advise to try to play "wrong" because your partner is stubborn and refuses to make right moves... dont let your own game suffer because of ppl like this! i think you WILL develop bad habits! play the right game and get a partner who knows doubles positioning in the next game... change club if the club is full of stubborn players who refuse to play good doubles
So imagine you are forced to play one game with a partner who doesn't know how to play properly... do you just give up because they can't play "properly"? They can't play correctly so you just make life hard for them? Or do you try hard and play a little differently anyway to try and win the game? Imagine you are playing with an elderly ex professional who cannot move so well any more - is it respectful to play with them the same way you would your normal partner, when you know they can't move that way any more? They know they can't play "properly" any more, and you know they can't... I think refusing to change your game is short sighted. Lots of players choose to play a very defensive style of badminton because they cannot move very well (normally due to age). I agree with you - if you only ever get to play with people who do not play "properly" then that could be a problem. Far better to find a better club or a different group of players where possible. But thats not an excuse if you play with someone who does not play the same tactics as you - this will always happen and on some occasions and every player should know how to deal with it.
Seems a bit harsh and I'm heistant to pile on, but I have to say I agree. If the video is an accurate depiction of the your current playing ability, I would not worry about the partner so much, but focus on your own technique/footwork because there is opportunity for improvement. I hope this comment is taken with the spirit it is intended. We all have room to improve. I know I certainly do and my deficiencies are too long to list! Plus I don't have the courage to post my games online so the internet can critique me so you're braver than I am. Like someone has posted this before, this thread have confirmed that your understanding of rotation is correct. Now that is settled, you can put your mind at ease so you can focus on improving the quality of your own play.
Fortunately it happens very rarely here that i am forced to play with somebody who doesnt know the basics. Mostly its new people who are just beginners and cannot know better. So when thats the case i will tell them the basic attack and defence formations and try to make it as simple as possible. I think many ppl are doing it that way in germany so that every somewhat competent human understands that basic stuff after 3-12 months We also dont park bad players at the net..general understanding of playing in my two clubs where i have played so far is that we play real doubles no matter the skill difference...maybe thats why we dont have such problems...bad ppl will learn from the good..and basic doubles movement really is very simple.. If it is a guy where I think that he wont get teached anyway i will play my best with the correct movement even if it means that we lose badly. Coincidentally thats what happened to me yesterday: I was pushed to the back and played an attacking shot --> it was defended by an average block but my partner stood on his side and looked at me with a look on his face like "oh no whats happening we lost another point!" after the third time i told him "I will continue to play that way no matter how often that will happen" He did not answer, we just continued..i dont think he understood what i meant..but he is playing for so many years - i wont waste my energy on teaching him, i will rather avoid playing with him...(and against him for that matter) and i rate playing well and executing right strategy (instead of getting into bad habits) higher than winning a stupid trainingsmatch for the example with ppl who are not able to move the correct way because of age/body...i cannot imagine that happening
PS: I think OP is in a very bad spot here. From the videos he looks like he might be the worst player but his strategy is absolutely right...very tough to tell anybody anything if you are not clearely the better player...
yes. The strategy is correct but the OP has practically no chance of influencing the other players in the group unless he himself proves himself to be a vastly better technical player - not better as in winning more points. If you win more games but your technique is poor, people still will not listen - that is human nature. Seen it happen many, many times. This is probably a solution that the OP doesn't want to hear because he might think his technique is already quite decent.
Even for recreational level, the level is quite low and if you're winning games your opponents must be really low level beginners. We're not even talking club or pro players here, but even for just self taught players on amateur level you'll get whooped if you're playing naturally good players or someone with good athleticism with no proper training (but well experienced with number of years playing), some get a correct grasp of how to play with natural instinct and sense but yours is way off with too many mistakes to correct even basics and I would suggest in getting some kind of proper training, you should at least aim to play with that higher level of amateur players (maybe by aiming for local amateur league or tournaments) instead of winning the whole time but not really upping you level of play, it will end up a viscous circle if you don't challenge yourself as you're content with what you're doing but from I could see it's just a big misunderstanding and over confidence of your skill. Sorry if I sound too straightforward but first things first and from I could see it's upping your skill you should set as your priority.
I think you're being extremely harsh there. I had a look at that video. The standard of play is a long, long way above "really low level beginners". But yes, the OP looks like the weakest player in that group. What's more interesting is that I'm not quite seeing the positional problems mentioned by the OP. Or rather, I am seeing them, but he and I are drawing slightly different conclusions. Overall, I would say the positional play is a lot better than he described. Why not take some examples from that video and discuss them? Surely that would be more useful than continuing to chew over this topic. @1m32s This is an example where @opikbiden is clearly correct. He is attacking from a decent position, and his partner is still "playing sides" at the moment of contact. The opponents could have blocked anywhere to the net without risk. @3m38s This is more interesting. Again, you are hitting from the back and your partner is not covering the net. You play a drop shot and your opponents should have taken control of the net. But look at how you are moving when you play the drop shot. You are falling out the back of the court. You are not in position to attempt an attack. You should have played a clear. Look how long it takes you to recover after your drop shot. You're still fully inside the back tramlines when your partner is playing the next shot at the net! How do you think you would have dealt with a flat lift to your backhand corner? Your partner knows all this, and was expecting you to play a clear. Now, you could argue he was a bit lazy and should have moved slightly farther forwards. But he had the right general idea. What I'm getting at here is that maybe it's not all your partner's fault. Yes, your partner makes some positional mistakes. But also your positional understanding could be improved, and maybe you don't understand why your partner is doing certain things. Sometimes your partner is actually covering up your mistakes or weaknesses, and that is the reason he doesn't "go to the right place". You can learn from this. You can change it. Sometimes he's just wrong, but there's not much you can do about that. Telling people how to play is inflammatory at the best of times, and even more so when they are stronger players than you are! I also think that some of this partner behaviour can be explained like this: he is a stronger player, and he is trying to cover you and take more of the shots. I'm not saying that's good, but it is understandable.
Thanks for your reply! Its good to understand your point of view. And in theory I agree with you - players should learn the basics and be able to play properly. But I have a very negative experience of doing this - I started blaming my partners for playing "wrong". Once I changed my mindset and took responsibility, I was able to play better, win more and enjoy the game more. Regarding the example about the lack of movement due to age: have a think about it. Theres a guy at my club who is now early 70s, and he used to be the number 1 in Denmark. I have great respect for him and enjoy playing with him, but its not "standard" doubles because he can't play that way - its more like mixed but where he is in a back corner. Your phrase "i rate playing well and executing right strategy (instead of getting into bad habits) higher than winning a stupid trainingsmatch" has made me laugh. I agree with it, but disagree at the same time. Because I rate playing well and being able to change my strategy much higher than playing "my way" regardless of whether its working or not. I prefer to execute an effective strategy, not the same strategy over and over again! However, it sounds like you are at a good club with like minded people and you usually get a reasonable partner - you are in a lucky position and hopefully you can continue to enjoy your games Thanks again!
