Legal height of shuttlecock's impact during serving?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by sautom88, Jun 7, 2015.

  1. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    Smashikon, Driveland
    I think the rules are ok.

    BWF just has to teach his judges to consistently judge the same way. It's not THAT hard to judge a serve.
     
  2. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    59
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    Just like the offside of football game, it is clear, but there is a grey area where the umpire cannot see clearly if its in the rule or not, so they just let it play.

    The rule is clear, use the navel for yourself as a guide, and use the elbow for the referee.

    Well, as offside rules changes, there is also a good chance to change the rule.
     
  3. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Surabaya
    The rules are OK, fixing the height is going to be difficult for varying heights of players.

    The problems are the players themselves. I somewhat detect that they are taking their service faults lightly, which maybe contributed by the environments they were trained in or the leniencies of many service judges or umpires in their previous tournaments. They need to practice to serve properly and to respect service judges or umpires decisions.

    This shows Tony Gunawan's short serves http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...s-service-grip?highlight=serves+low+backhand;
    Are those faulty serves of present players as low as that?
    There was also another great thread from Gollum on low doubles serves and another thread w/ pics of Sigit Pamungkas n Tony Gunawan serves and their angles and motions were clearly shown. Sorry I cannot find it anymore.


    Don't give excuses that the present-day players are the world's bests n can serve any way they see fit. They are good enough to be up there, so what's so difficult to learn to serve properly?
     
    #23 sautom88, Jun 9, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
  4. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Surabaya
  5. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    124
    Location:
    United States
    As an umpire going up for Continental Accredidation this summer, I'll cite pretty much everything phihag says is true. I will not go into further details, but what he said in his original post holds a lot.
    For serves, I don't think the problem are the rules, but the consistency of following the rules.

    For short serves that players hold high, they push it, and umpires become lenient in calling it. When it gets to finals, and no one has called the player the whole tournament, you, as an umpire, are (feeling) kinda pressured to not call it as well.


    Aside from that, service judging isn't easy. Anyone can sit at home, or in the audience and scream "HEY THAT'S A FAULT" It's done everywhere by everyone in different sports. (I'll admit I get upset when I watch American Football, screaming at the TV that the referees didn't catch a penalty against my favorite team). But when you're in the actual chair, it's different. For flick serves, as phihag stated, it's hard sometimes because you have a split second to make your decision. There's cases where they flick and it's so fast you can barely see the racket shaft. And then 2 seconds later, you go OH THAT'S A FAULT. Well guess what? By that time, it's too late to fault.
     
  6. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    23,818
    Likes Received:
    4,791
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    BWF can help by stating the shuttle must be clearly below.....

    Would that help reduce the grey area?
     
  7. opikbidin

    opikbidin Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2014
    Messages:
    734
    Likes Received:
    59
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Sydney, NSW, Australia
    No, because as human, you can't see clearly on the "borders". Must be helped by technology. like hawkeye or something akin to the goal line technology.

    I think The umpires should be able to make a retro decision even the game has been on for some time
     
  8. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Surabaya
    Does anyone knows how much Hawkeye charges per challenge? It might be too costly for 60 shots of hawkeye per match of 3sets.
     
  9. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Surabaya
    Even the smashes speed calculations are not much in use anymore. Is that too expensive too? Any one knows why we hardly see them anymore?
     
  10. wahchai305

    wahchai305 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    southeast quardrant
    i understand the IRS is based on rapid picture taking to work out the line calls.
    so no algorithms are used to work out the trajectory/path - as in the case for
    cricket, for eg.
    what they put up on the screen, showing the spot where the shuttle had landed,
    are mere animation; so it does NOT reflect the real life image(s).
     
    #30 wahchai305, Jun 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  11. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    16,401
    Likes Received:
    2,001
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Yes, 8 high speed video cameras at 660fps each.

    It doesn't have 3D computer mapping as in tennis because the shuttle flight trajectory is more difficult to simulate due to the projectile being so light at 5g and easily affected by draft and feather condition.

    http://www.victorsport.com/mobile/coach_detail_6958.html
     
    #31 visor, Jun 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  12. Rudy2009

    Rudy2009 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    banking
    Location:
    singapore
    is there a better way to ensure a fair serve such that a game can continue beyond service?. These service faults that we see recently are so arbitrary unless you play topless !
     
  13. Rudy2009

    Rudy2009 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2010
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    banking
    Location:
    singapore
    would it be better if the reference height for a serve be taken off some line drawn on the net , so that regardless how tall you are you have to serve below that reference line?
    and to prevent receivers rushing to the net in doubles we do away with the back line or at lest move it back a bit more ?
     
  14. vinay_s

    vinay_s Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    36
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    self employed
    Location:
    India
    at the risk of sounding stupid (but simple), how about every player to wear a personalised BWF pre-checked shirt which has a stripe at their personal service height boundary.
     
  15. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    973
    Likes Received:
    88
    Location:
    Surabaya
    We still need sponsors even on clothings. A simpler idea will be to put on small line stickers on their shirts, just a visible line sticker 20cm long on every players shirts
     
  16. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    89
    Location:
    UK
    that was already discussed here and got beat down for being ridiculously impractical.
     
  17. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    730
    Location:
    Germany
    No offense, but have you read the previous posts? Fixed height has already been tried, see law §9.1.6.2. It didn't work.

    In any case, you are assuming that the problem is that service judges have problems judging where the lowest rip is. In my experience, that is rarely the problem. Is it a problem for you personally in the games you judge? How many of the umpires you know cite deciding where the lowest rip is as a problem?

    Service judges can simply look at the server's elbows and judge from that. Also, none of the faults I've seen in high-level tournaments were close; neither a line on the shirts nor a fixed height would've made a difference.
     
  18. wahchai305

    wahchai305 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    southeast quardrant
    I dont agree about it being arbitrary. Certainly not for the "shuttle above the waist" bit.
    Umpire/service judge usually use the player's elbow as a starting point.
    Thats when the hands are hanging down by the sides - visually mark where
    that player's lowest rib might be, and work from there.
    I have seen some service judge use a "mark" on the players top_wear as
    a bench mark.
    That is my take in a recent tournament when a msian xd were wearing tops
    that has "maybank" logo on the front. Trouble is - this logo is framed within
    a rectangle; and the service judge use the bottom of the rectangle as a
    reference point when viewing the lady's serve. But I think her elbow at rest is a bit
    lower than the bottom of that rectangle.
    Name of the game - dont give them something so obvious.
    Why else do you think NO players tuck their tops into their shorts? :)
     
  19. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,890
    Likes Received:
    89
    Location:
    UK
    Why else do you think NO players tuck their tops into their shorts? :)

    Because it is not comfortable and with all the twisting and turning they will come out after 5s anyway?
     
  20. H8work

    H8work Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2012
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    World Wide Web
    I think it's time for BWF to make a video on what is legal and a fault on serve, yes there are written rules on service action, but interpretation varies from service judge to service judge and interpretation from player to player is different.
     

Share This Page