What confuses me, in particular, is that if you watch his original "play to win" DVD (featuring Simon Archer), he does not panhandle his overheads. Which confuses me - why did he change technique?!
Alternative to Lee Jae Bok's approach to smashing.
- Thread starter BernieR
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What confuses me, in particular, is that if you watch his original "play to win" DVD (featuring Simon Archer), he does not panhandle his overheads. Which confuses me - why did he change technique?!
visor
Regular Member
I have to watch more of his videos past and present to come to a firmer conclusion, but I have a feeling perhaps he has developed a bit of shoulder limitation and so had adjusted his stroke to a more compact one at a lower striking point.
I'd like to see how he throws a shuttle overhead , for example.
I'd like to see how he throws a shuttle overhead , for example.
I would agree with your analysis - his teaching has changed. I just can't understand WHY. Maybe its because of evolving racket technology making shorter and sharper swings more powerful and viable than when he used to play.
One thing to remember when watching this video not to bring elbow forward (which he does at 1:52). This is for very beginners, I think (the reason some people do that) a lot of coaches tells that to the student in the very beginning to make sure they hit the bird at a high point. So, I won't focus so much on bringing the elbow forward. What he did at 1:37 or 1:41 is more correct form. I am sure he doesn't bring the elbow forward like 1:52 when he smashes.
Lee Jae Bok Style:
I got some private lessons from Lee Jae Bok and I know his technique people thing is a lot different and you guys call it a pan-handling grip, it's actually not. So, he turns the racket 10 deg or less which is no way panhandle grip. So, please don't call that. He uses pronation. You have to, there is no other way. But he focuses on wrist more. If you get more court time with him, you will understand wrist can be crazy deception. We have this mindset that powerful smash = best player. I know it's a cool thing. I still want to make my smash powerful even though i can improve on other things. But he wants people to learn the wrist power, you can do any shot once you master this technique. Being the front player I find I can cut off more easily also once in a while I can do a punch deceptive clear and I get people off balance.
I asked him the same question, why use so much wrist, what about pronation. I don't remember exactly what he said but it was something along the line that it was overrated. He said to use 10% pronation and focus 90% on my wrist power. You start with that as you basic. And then you will get a feel for the bird, you can feel you clean you are hitting. Then you start to add bit more pronation and experiment, until you find the sweet spot for you body (a perfect ratio of using wrist and pronation). That's what I have experienced. I wish my wrist was like him, his wrist is super strong, I feel he can smash faster just using his wrist than some provincial players. So, please don't get hung up on his grip and more use of wrist. I used to think that way too.
Few things are very similar and LJB focuses on some points which people usually don't tell you about.
Here are some random thoughts from me... which helped me fixed my overhead shots.
1. Before the smash stop (don't be wobbly, need to be very relaxed and balanced)
Loading Position
Time 2:55 [video=youtube;Bl9L5Z-6ufc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl9L5Z-6ufc[/video]
1a. Then stay both feet on the ground, go into loading position and execute the smash.
1b. Jump up a bit (more 80 to 90% power from the racket leg), loading position and smash.
Try not to spend too much time at the loading position. it should be very quick. From the relaxed position (even when I jump i am still relaxed), load and smash. The part load and smash is a very quick motion. The shorter and compact it is, the more power you will get. Also, don't slice the bird, if you don't hear a clean sound try changing the grip. Use the LJB 10 deg change, that helped me.
Not sure how to explain the body rotation, that took me really long time to learn. I mean to make it one thing, the smash and whole body moving at the same time, so I can get power from legs, core etc. If I look at this video 2:56, you can try that except move the right leg forward. take a step. This is for beginner with not jumping.
2. LJB actually use pronation, if you watch him in slow motion you will see. But he focuses a lot on wrist, because I think a lot of people focus too much on pronation. Bio mechanically you need to use forearm pronation to get power. But the important thing to remember is to have very concentrated motion. That's why I think he told me to use 10% pronation but the pronation will come naturally.
Time: 4:38
[video=youtube;la45ftnXb_M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la45ftnXb_M&list=PLEBDE1E42B3A9BC37&index=19[/video]
3. As you are hitting, you need to move forward (at least not fall back)
4. Using more wrist gives you a lot of deception. you can clear using a very shot motion and you can also use wrist to do a quick smash (when playing fast doubles most of the time you have no time to load).
5. Train your wrist using a 10lb dumble, you can get a lot of power.
PS: I always think there are room for improvements. If some of you out there think I mentioned anything you don't agree, please feel free to comment.
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Gollum
Regular Member
No one is saying Lee uses a full panhandle grip for overheads. Obviously he doesn't do that.
I have had coaching from Lee too, and I remember him teaching the "10 degree panhandle" for smashing. That is one thing he teaches, and I quite like it.
However, if you look at his recent video teaching, he seems to have exaggerated this a lot. It is no longer 10 degrees; it's more like 20, 30, or even 40 degrees. Also his contact point is lower and he is hitting farther out in front.
So to recap:
- The "10 degree panhandle" is fine for smashing. I teach it myself.
- A more severe panhandle is bad.
Natty Bumpo
Regular Member
Could mention some specific exercises with 10lb dumbbell includes sets and reps
What does it mean wrist vs pronation?
I thought wrist are the thing that we are suppose to pronate/supinate.
It's the wrist vs the forearm+ wrist
Wrist movement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrist :
1. radial deviation (abduction, movement towards the thumb)
2. ulnar deviation (adduction, movement towards the little finger).
3.lexion (palmar flexion, tilting towards the palm)
4. extension (dorsiflexion, tilting towards the back of the hand).
However, movements at the wrist can not be properly described without including movements in the distal radioulnar joint in which the rotary actions of supination and pronation occur and this joint is therefore normally regarded as part of the wrist.
---Rotate your forearm, this is the 5th movement, it uses the wrist till the elbow so your hand can rotate.
Just came across this thread, and totally understand everyone's skepticism across LJB's methods.
I've been training with Coach Lee for almost 2 years now (and still training with him now). The only training I've had before was a couple sessions with a former HK national team member - but the total lessons I've had with him was: 2 - so I would say the majority of my technique and skills were due to my training with Coach Lee. I would consider myself as an advanced player and am able to give top players here where I am (that have been training for 10+ years) good rallies.
I've had my fair share of skepticism with his techniques in the beginning as well. Considering I've been using my own money to train 3 times a week with him - I better be getting my value for money and learning from the best. I could have switched so many times to popular chinese/indonesian coaches here, but I've stayed with him two years now and now I can say I truly understand his mindset in teaching, his philosophy, and his ways.
You are all right in seeing what you see in his videos. It does look like panhandle grip. He does use a lot of wrist. He does not turn his body. He does not pro-nate his wrist. What Coach Lee is teaching you, and does not explicitly say in the videos (in the best interest of beginners), is to be able to hit consistently before learning all the other techniques. He builds you from the ground up (which is a different approach to how other coaches teach).
If you turn your body now, pronate your wrists like you see in videos, use full arm swing... etc... You are 100% likely to slice the shuttle, mis-hit the bird, become inconsistent, and lose your rallies. I also had to painfully learn the 'boring' way with Coach Lee where I started with what seems to be a pan-handle grip (but it's really not - grip is rotated about 10%). But what I noticed with this approach is that I am way more consistent than my peers. Sure, they can look good like like LCW or LD; but believe me when I say I'm glad I learned from Coach Lee when I see these kids mis-hit or slice their shots into the net over and over again.
Learn to be consistent before adding the other stuff.
Long story short, 1.5 years after initial training (basically learning and mastering all his techniques) - he told me to try pronating my wrist more, using a little more arm, trying to slice my shots, slightly turning my body to make shots a bit more deceptive etc.... He only teaches you to add the other things only after you becoming consistent and solid with the basic techniques. Otherwise, without learning to walk, how do you expect to run?
Both Coach Lee's method and approach is different from traditional coaches. But now, I feel his way so much more consistent. I feel much more solid and have better control of my game.
Fun Fact: Did you know his wife is former world #2 women's singles in the world?
I've been training with Coach Lee for almost 2 years now (and still training with him now). The only training I've had before was a couple sessions with a former HK national team member - but the total lessons I've had with him was: 2 - so I would say the majority of my technique and skills were due to my training with Coach Lee. I would consider myself as an advanced player and am able to give top players here where I am (that have been training for 10+ years) good rallies.
I've had my fair share of skepticism with his techniques in the beginning as well. Considering I've been using my own money to train 3 times a week with him - I better be getting my value for money and learning from the best. I could have switched so many times to popular chinese/indonesian coaches here, but I've stayed with him two years now and now I can say I truly understand his mindset in teaching, his philosophy, and his ways.
You are all right in seeing what you see in his videos. It does look like panhandle grip. He does use a lot of wrist. He does not turn his body. He does not pro-nate his wrist. What Coach Lee is teaching you, and does not explicitly say in the videos (in the best interest of beginners), is to be able to hit consistently before learning all the other techniques. He builds you from the ground up (which is a different approach to how other coaches teach).
If you turn your body now, pronate your wrists like you see in videos, use full arm swing... etc... You are 100% likely to slice the shuttle, mis-hit the bird, become inconsistent, and lose your rallies. I also had to painfully learn the 'boring' way with Coach Lee where I started with what seems to be a pan-handle grip (but it's really not - grip is rotated about 10%). But what I noticed with this approach is that I am way more consistent than my peers. Sure, they can look good like like LCW or LD; but believe me when I say I'm glad I learned from Coach Lee when I see these kids mis-hit or slice their shots into the net over and over again.
Learn to be consistent before adding the other stuff.
Long story short, 1.5 years after initial training (basically learning and mastering all his techniques) - he told me to try pronating my wrist more, using a little more arm, trying to slice my shots, slightly turning my body to make shots a bit more deceptive etc.... He only teaches you to add the other things only after you becoming consistent and solid with the basic techniques. Otherwise, without learning to walk, how do you expect to run?
Both Coach Lee's method and approach is different from traditional coaches. But now, I feel his way so much more consistent. I feel much more solid and have better control of my game.
Fun Fact: Did you know his wife is former world #2 women's singles in the world?
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SSSSNT
Regular Member
If this is the case then he should really state it in his videos.
There are a lot of higher level players watching too, and they listen because it's freakin Lee Jae Bok, not some hack coach from the street. What if they watch and then revert from their "more advanced" technique to his "more for beginner" techniques because....it's Lee Jae Bok.
Thanks for posting this, I gain a deeper understanding of his approach. Seems like a guy who really cares for people who want to learn badminton.
Thanks for posting this. Its very interesting to hear your view and what happens after you have mastered his "basics".
With what you have said in mind, the tone and content of his videos frustrates me even more. Many individuals look to his videos to see "perfect" technique, which, by your admission, the videos are not intended to show. As I suspected, Lee actually teaches something different in person (albeit only after you have gained a good grasp of some "beginner" techniques).
Those players who view his videos as the only way to hit shots are, therefore, misled in their opinions - it is not the only way to play shots, it is simply some learning tips from a coach. This is not a fault in the content of the video, but perhaps it would be useful for more people to understand what the videos are trying to say, rather than assuming they are gospel.
What I find interesting is that you feel his limited pronation hitting technique, before later moving on to incorporate pronation, was a useful way of learning. It has obviously worked/is working for you, so thats great. No doubt it will also work for countless other players.
However, I am surrounded by england junior players for several different age categories who were simply taught to hit with pronation from the moment they started - I have seen them progress and develop with a technique that they will never have to change. Within a few years of playing the game, they have learnt to hit with slice, reverse slice, and pronation. But they are not allowed to learn slices until they have learnt to hit accurately without slice, using pronation. I do not feel they would have reached their proficiency in so short a time without having been exposed to these techniques early on (but once they have mastered how to hit without slice). The main distinguishing feature between these players, and all the others in their age groups, is their ability to play exceptional disguised shots. The other kids and county players (whom are 10 years older) simply do not have the same shot quality and variety. It may just be a very good coach doing a very good job, or there is considerable benefit in developing a large range of shots from an early age.
Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts. It doesn't change my opinion, but it does help me understand!
Cheers!
Gollum
Regular Member
I don't understand the rationale of teaching a completely different technique to beginners. Unlearning bad techniques is really hard.
Of course, it's rare for a beginner to jump straight into a 100% perfect grip and hitting action. Most of them will have to be gradually weaned off panhandling, rather than going cold turkey. I don't expect a complete grip change all at once.
Of course, it's rare for a beginner to jump straight into a 100% perfect grip and hitting action. Most of them will have to be gradually weaned off panhandling, rather than going cold turkey. I don't expect a complete grip change all at once.
BethuneGuy
Regular Member
To be honest, the students with his body type are really good for his style. I see him coach every week. He's also very consistent, and all his students get up a decent level. However, they never break the mid-tier competition...
Wish his wife would teach her style instead of his though, she has a lot of knowledge to bring to the table being the world #2 women's singles back in the day.
Wish his wife would teach her style instead of his though, she has a lot of knowledge to bring to the table being the world #2 women's singles back in the day.
What most people don't know is he also trained former world top 10 MS player Richard Vaughan as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Vaughan_(badminton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Vaughan_(badminton)
mikescully
Regular Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah8XXTsVq4Y
here's Momota sharing his philosophy about smashing (judging from the video he wasn't smashing full power due to the studio size), saying during take back one should be relaxed and during that very moment of impact one should give the whole power and stresses the importance of core strength, adding his tube smashing ratio is 10% during practice (1 hit out of 10 attempts)
here's Momota sharing his philosophy about smashing (judging from the video he wasn't smashing full power due to the studio size), saying during take back one should be relaxed and during that very moment of impact one should give the whole power and stresses the importance of core strength, adding his tube smashing ratio is 10% during practice (1 hit out of 10 attempts)
Was wondering if there was a graphic depiction of this too?
Thanks.
*Edit
Nm found it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwfU83bqqOM
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Nanoray900
Regular Member
hi, do u guys notice coach lee smashing approach is more suitable for women? most women in my club smash with near panhandle grip, men on the other hand usually jump smash which has not been covered by coach lee yet in his videos.