35mm format a misnomer in digital cameras

Discussion in 'Badminton Photography' started by taneepak, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Unlike the 35mm film format today's digital cameras cannot legitimately claim to be a 35mm format. Call it by any other name or format, but not 35mm format because there is none in digital cameras.
    35mm format belongs to the days of film cameras because most film cameras use 35mm films that come in cartridges. This in turn was borrowed from cinefilm ,during the early Leica years which had a film width from edge to edge of exactly 35mm-hence 35mm format. If you have a roll of 135 negatives take out a ruler and measure the film width from edge to edge and it is 35mm, no more, no less. On this roll of 35mm wide film film cameras could take up to 36 pictures/images measuring 24mm x 36mm. Because the sprockets on the edges take up some space the remaining space was limited to 24mm.
    Today's digital cameras have no such standard to speak of. Their F/F sensor is only 24mm vs the film's 35mm when comparing the yardstick used as a standard, their 36mm vs the film's 18mm or 24mm or 32mm or in most cases 36mm. Perhaps that is why Leica never called their S2 a MF camera. It is simply called an S format. There is no uniform sizes in digital sensors, even those with so called APS-C sensors do not all measure exactly the same. Even a few F/F do not measure exactly 24mm x 36mm. Perhaps the only real standardized sensor size may be the Four Thirds.
     
  2. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    let's list a few fact first:

    each frame of a "35mm" film has the follow dimension: 36mm x 24mm.

    a Nikon FX sensor (note they don't call it 35mm) has the following dimension: 35.9mm x 24mm

    a Canon FF sensor has the following dimension: 36mm x 24mm.

    except for the most nitpicking individual, they are practically the same size.

    in the digital world, no manufacturers called their sensor a 35mm sensor. Nikon uses DX and FX to refer to their sensor sizes, Canon uses FF, APS-C, APS-H, Panasonic uses 4/3rds.

    so i don't know where you are coming from.
     
  3. Gladius

    Gladius Regular Member

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    He has a grudge against anything digital that does not come from his beloved Leica. ....

    Or for that matter suits his desired arguments.....

    :p:rolleyes:
     
  4. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    To prove Mr. T's undying love for those Leica's cameras, lenses..

    here are 2 proofs:
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28369
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46258

    Mr. T, today's "35mm" DSLRs also have the same format as those 35mm film cameras of yesteryears. That format is now called sensors. And they are given a specific naming & already mentioned/listed by kwun above...Thus, there is no misnomer.
    Since i have a feeling you haven't touched any real DSLR, the next time i visit HK, i'm going to gift you a nice, latest & greatest mid-range DSLR so you can experiment with it. How's that??..:cool:
     
    #4 ctjcad, Aug 22, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2009
  5. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Oh, is that so? Please look at the big picture-see www.canon.com/news for "News /Press Releases 2009". Look under May 15, 2009 ...Canon EOS 5D Mark II awarded top honors in Japan's premier photo industry awards. It says very clearly it is a 35mm full frame format. This is from Canon headquarters.
    What does the public think? Would they be convinced that today's dslrs are not 35mm cameras or based on 35mm format?
     
  6. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Shame on both Canon and Nikon, still clutching to, and falsely claiming that their f/f sensors are based on, the 35mm film format for their 24 x 36 sensors dslrs. They call it their 35mm CMOS. There is nothing 35mm about it. That belongs to 135 film/slides that comes in 35mm width with sprockets and in a length suitable for either 24 or 36 or even 72 pictures. That clever corporate and PR dropping of names, 35mm format, is one smart move.
     
  7. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    ouch.. now my head is hurts.... :confused::confused::confused::confused:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/135_film
    those two.. mention the same size..
    whats different between 24x36 with 24x36??

    is there a hidden number in 24x36 comparing to 24x36??
    I agree with Gladius, seem Taneepak had grudge against digital.. or maybe Taneepak is one of those who always believe no matter how advance digital.. film is always the best. Seem whatever Taneepak said, is always absolute right?
     
  8. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Well, I am confused. Now, which is which? One says no manufacturers called their sensors a 35mm sensor, only DX, FX or FF sensors. Others seem to agree. Now, we hear that 24 x 36 is 35mm format in dslr? Or is it a 35mm sensor?
    A better format is to call it by its diagonal in mm sensor, like a 43.3mm sensor. At least this 43.3mm sensor format is more precise than DX, FX, and FF sensors, don't you agree? But can you imagine manufacturers opting to use this term? Their 'bridge' to their legacy 35mm lenses will simply collapse, hightlighting to the photographic world that true 24x36 size sensor digital cameras are not the peoples choice, numbering a handful of models instead of thousands as it should be. A common standard has now become extremely uncommon.
     
  9. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    anyone ever try measure the image capture in the 35mm negative or positive?
    is it truly measured 36X24mm for all film cameras? Leica, Canon, Nikon, Ricoh and etc.....

    regarding what the manufacturer call the sensor. 135 is well known and it carries the idea until today. even the lenses and aperture will refer to 35mm format. i am from 135 SLR and come into DSLR. till now, i still need to refer back to my experience in 35mm SLR. the crop factor, which aperture, what focal length to go. it is good for the manufacturer, Canon & Nikon to have reference back to 35mm film format. if not, i will be total lost and learn the hard way. did anyone learn the hard way? using positive/negative, shoot from 35mm f/2.8, f/4.0, f/8.0, f/11, then shoot 90mm again with the aperture changes. then 150mm, again. then change the subject distance.
    wonder why Leica dont even comes out with DSLR?
    as i said before, Leica is having financial trouble and try venture into medium format which is Hasselblad is the king. the great about Leica is its rangefinder, not the slr style. why copy contax, if Leica is to proud of itself and want to set new standard. S2 with the lens nearer to sensor will set things back, like the bokeh/out-focus. same distance, same view-of-field, same aperture, lens nearer to sensor will not have the background blur that will enhance the subject. this is what we can see with compact P&S camera.
    Leica should not copy others like, auto-focus, slr system, multi-pattern metering and etc. the S2 is not a proud for Leica. for me, i still love its rangefinder.
     
  10. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    It makes things easier to understand that the sensor is equivalent to the 135 film.

    I'm not really sure what the fuss is all about if digital has no standard. Being standard isn't always better. There are advantages and disadvantages.

    For DSLRs, canon and nikon, I fail to see what the problem is. Their sensors and mounts do not conform to a standard. That didn't stop them from selling lots of cameras. Lenses between Canon and Nikon are not interchangable - but that situation is no different from 135 SLRs.


    In short, what I mean is "so what?":confused::confused::confused::confused:
     
  11. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    I'm not sure now, who are confused...
    I have a read again at the original thread message. Digital full frame sensor is 24x36 and the old film media was 24x36. Thats the fact that I know. digital Full frame is never been 24 x X where X is 18 or 24 or some other numbers, its be always 24x36 (Kwun is right for Nikon its 24x35.9 but I think .1mm difference won't make heck of difference. I don't think you will notice the .1mm difference anyway on the photo you see unless you try to be nitpicking).
    Thats why I'm very confused with your claim that Nikon and Canon shameful for making false statement about their FF sensor? I would be very agree with you that Canon/Nikon making false fact if their sensor is in fact measured 18x24 but they claim its 24x36. Believe me, they will get shoot down very fast if they are stupid enough to make that claim. Yet, I find no one in the world (that I know of.... from Canon or Nikon forum) that saying the FF sensor is not the same size as film measurement..
    However if you still claiming Canon or Nikon's FF sensor is not the same as film's, why not just do the very basic primitive way... buy one cheapest roll of FF film you can destroy, cut one film's media and then buy FF DSLR, probably the cheapest is 2nd hand 5D or just get broken 5D. Stick the film on top of the sensor and see the difference. I guess this is the very basic primitive way to compare... rather than keep debating to no end here.
    heck.. maybe Im one very confused person now.. :confused::confused::eek::eek:;);)
     
  12. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Well, this is something new. It would yurn photography on its head if the above is true.
    First let me explain a little about the lens to sensor or film distance. For the best of lens design the mirror box of a dslr or slr and the auto-diaphragm reduce the lens designer's flexibilty for the perfect lens. Second, there is no truth that a longer lens to sensor distance makes better bokeh or a shallower depth of field. The Leica M camera has a slim lens to film distance of only 27.8mm compared with the Nikon's huge 46.5mm. Yet a 90mm lens set at f2.8 will have identical depth of field and bokeh in both cameras, that is only a D3, when filling the frame with a subject of the same size. In fact the M camera will beat even the Nikon D3, albeit marginally, but will slaughter all the other Nikon dslrs of less than F/F. My Zeiss Ikon is only 28mm thick and its lens to film distance is even smaller. But this camera has a diagonal image of 128mm with its standard lens close to 128mm although it spots a lens of only 105mm. It will make the Nikon's bokeh and depth of field look at a P&S. Confused? No, it is clever lens design unencumbered by the mirror box and auto-diaphragm.
    The Zeiss and especially the Leica lenses are the unchallenged kings of bokeh. Because of very high lens quality these top class lenses are used at their maximum aperture, which are very useable aperture unlike almost all other lenses whose maximum apertures are a joke, good for nothing except for focusing. The design and quality of the diaphgragm or aperture blades aslo play a part.
     
  13. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Maybe a little more information about standard formats in cameras can come in handy. The image formed by a lens is round and its diameter is related to the size of the recording medium, be it film or sensor thence storage. For some unexplained reasons the recording medium is always cropped, never round. Do we see things in a circle or is it always a fixed two-dimensional height and width ratio of 2 to 3 as in 24 x 36? Some big boys say the 2:3 ratio is a sheer waste of useful image, so they have a square picture. Be it 2:3, square or what have you, they are are cropped from the original circular image.
    So far so good, now what happens to the discarded part of the circular image that has gone into the camera body? Of course it gets bounced around. That is the reason why the insides of a camera body are matt black, no glass to accentuate bouncing light to create flare. Flare creates unsharpness. A cropped image of 36x36 instead of 24x36 will theoritically produce crisper pictures, the former will have less light to bounce around than the latter. Both these 2 sizes can be used on the same body with the same lens. Now, tell me what is the true diagonal of this format? Surely, both cannot be right because both will take the same lens and produce the same picture except one is less cropped than the other. The true diagonal is 50.9mm. Does this ring a bell? Is it a standard lens for your 35mm film camera? Some say it is 43.3mm diagonal but 43.3mm is not a standard lens for a 35mm film camera. Confused? Where does 35mm come in?
    35mm is a standard used for a film with a height from edge to edge of 35mm, which is moved along the camera body for each exposure. There is no mention of the length of the film, only the 35mm height, for a good reason. The length can be anything, and cameras have been made to take 24 exposures, 36 exposures, 72 exposures, and 250 exposures or pictures, so there is no other specifications on length other than the 35mm height.
    Like a standard rail gauge for trains to run on, the 35mm film gauge provides space for the "rails" called sprockets, leaving enough room left for a 24mm image. Now why is the length 36mm? Actually, there is no reason why it should be only 36mm. It can be 18mm and many cameras have used this.
    Irrespective of what image size on the film is, the standard gauge is 35mm that makes things move along.
    We now move on to dslrs, which started with almost all a mumbo jumbo of standards, and 35mm it certainly is not. But their claim to 35mm started on the day dslr was born. But there is no standard gauge like you have on rail tracks and on 135 film. So keen are they to stay within the 35mm standard family they then came up with crop factors this, crop factors that. Crop factors have always existed between 35mm, medium format, large format film cameras but nobody ever abuse its use. They have done such a good job that the public now thinks all dslr are 35mm digital cameras with that funny crop factors.
     
  14. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    yes, the internal is matte black for better light reflection control.
    the digital sensor isnt matte, is shineeyyyy.......:D older generation of lenses are not so design to prevent the reflection of the ccd or cmos.

    yes, there is no standard for the crop nor there is standard sensor size for Leica to set for the industry.
    manufacturers like Canon & Nikon still producing sensor which is same to 35mm film is to the benefit of us as the user. lenses are more expensive than camera. lenses like the L series and AF-s series are designed according to 35mm format. as many may notice, there is no L lenses for aps-c format design.

    Mr taneepak,
    please do not upset with the DSLR about the mumbo-jumbo crop size. it is just design according to their expertise and marketing strategies. 4/3 is the same, consider under mumbo-jumbo. even leica S2 also under mumbo-jumbo. there is no international standard saying that 45mm X 30mm that used by Leica S2 is the standard to follow by all manufacturers.
    yesteryears, cameras are design to use the widely available 35mm negative or positive film. we are now living in the digital age, any sensor sizes will do, as long as we can attain the moment we want in a print or as reference. better quality or normal acceptable quality is by individual requirement. some are happy with phone camera, some are enough with p&s camera(you pass them the DSLR, they will just put aside, dont know how to use), some require better quality for selling their photos.
    again, there is nothing to argue about the mumbo-jumbo size of sensor.
     
  15. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    So Why did the 35mm standard film created? because film company can create 1 standard film to use in many different camera brand.
    So tell me when are you going to pull out your Nikon sensor and put them in Canon DSLR? And why do you want to do that?
    As long as I shoot my picture from a Nikon FF body and get the exact picture as my FM2, do I care? How many pro-am photographer care? So how much on the edge of the picture did you cut off when you develop it?
     
  16. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    Maybe from the ancient Greeks and the Golden Ratio.
    Through proportions of paintings and of books.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#Painting
     
  17. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    sorry, i have to post or write again.
    cant stop laughing as Leica announced M9 and X1. :D:D:D
    shame on Leica to call their sensors are 35mm format and aps-c format.
     
  18. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Did Leica actually call their new M9 a 35mm sensor? Or is it a 24 x 36mm ccd sensor, as their press release seems to say? If Leica claims it is a 35mm sensor then yes brickbats to them. If not, what then?
     
  19. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    oh...........taneepak! not again!
     
  20. drifit

    drifit newbie

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    hmm..... is it Leica claimed 35mm format?
    i am not sure too.

    "The history of 35-mm photography began almost 100 years ago with the legendary Ur-Leica. Today, it is the Leica M9, a landmark camera that carries the proud heritage of Leica M cameras into the digital age. The Leica M9 is the world's first digital system camera of its size to be built with a full-frame sensor - a CCD sensor developed specifically for the M9 - that is capable of perfectly capturing the full 35-mm format (24 × 36 mm) in ultra-high resolution. The new M9 - in the familiar, classic, and timeless M design, represents the quintessence of its predecessors based on the consummate technological level of our time. It is the perfect contemporary tool for those who set the highest standards in image quality and are committed to creating images of enduring value."

    pick from: UK Leica webpage
    further readings may refer there too.

    mr taneepak,
    is time for you to think about getting back to photography.
    Leica produce a great digital M series for Leica's enthusiast.
     

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